I saw a sporterized Krag in a gun shop in SC. It nearly made me cry in sadness and pity for the thing. I hate it when people ruin and erase history. Why bother, why not just buy a new hunting rifle instead of ruining a piece of history?:crying:
Printable View
I saw a sporterized Krag in a gun shop in SC. It nearly made me cry in sadness and pity for the thing. I hate it when people ruin and erase history. Why bother, why not just buy a new hunting rifle instead of ruining a piece of history?:crying:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatMarket
If the barrel has not been cut back, you could, of course, buy it and restore it to its (presumed) original configuration as far as is feasible. The forums here have many examples of excellent work of this nature.
:wave:
Patrick
In the 1920s and 30s the Krag had no historical value. It was just an inexpensive hunting rifle. While sporterizing one TODAY would be questionable, to blame our fore-fathers for taking a good, inexpensive rifle and turning it into a handy deer rifle that kept food on the table throughout the Depression or other hard times is short sighted. Who knew in 1920 or 1930 that the Krag (or any other milsurp rifle) would ever have value? Almost nobody.
kragluver is correct. Even through the 60's great rifles like 1903's were considered to have little or no value. Commercial hunting rifles were very expensive so many people sporterized them. Some are almost works of art in their own rite.
My dad was in the Korean War. I remember him seeing an M1 Garand for sale cheap sometime in the sixties and he cussed it and said "who would want one of those heavy pieces of %$@#."
Harlan and kragluver, thank you for saying what I felt.
When these rifles were sold in the 20's and 30's from the local state guard armories, they went for less that $5 in some cases. As you said the depression drove a lot of these rifles into sporter use to simply stave off starvation.
These rifles were cheap enough and that's the way they went.
I just finished restoring a Krag sporter and it turned out fine. She's back to her former glory., looking for all the world as good as the day she was issued.
I have previously done several 03 and 03A3's and I am proud of the restorations. Carry along a tape measure and check the barrel length.
Meatmarket, this Krag you speak of, was it in a shop in downtown Aiken?
It is interesting how the years change perspective on things. I am still sad when I see it even though sporerizing was completely rational at the time. I do wonder somtimes if there is anything currently produced that will illicit those feelings at some later date.
Unfortunately, there are very few military rifles that will ever be surplused out to civilians as those in the past since most have been full auto capabilities from the 60's onward. Another reason to take care of, and restore the ex-military rifles we are allowed to own.
Good point. I will do my part to send "Bubba" into retirement. Along that same train of thought certainly looks like some folks are parting out a lot of Japanese 99s on E-bay. Since there was no surplus importation of Japanese rifles or rifle parts I do not see another explination other than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan
Its really hard to believe that anyone would take a nice old milsurp rifle and cut it all up. But in years past the military rifles were not appreciated. Just like the WWII Aircraft many were scrapped others sold at cheep rates. In the 50's and 60's
the WWII surplus was not appreciated like they are today. The 30-40 Krag Jorgenson was not a popular rifle when it was sold to the general public. Many were sporterized or bubbaed really. They were cheep. Not a popular round. And not a popular loading system.
After the Krags came Mausers, then Enfields then more Mausers and finally Mosins. In every case there were lots of rifles. They were cheep and people wanted to change them to hunting rifles or tack drivers or what ever.
They always want to refinish them. Or reblue them. Or cut them up.
I personally like the original finish even if its beat up. I think these old battle rifles are a piece of history and want to keep mine that way.
All very true. The one thing to note is factory made hunting/sporting rifles of the time period were a little scarce and very expensive compared to average income. The old surplus rifles were very plentiful and were sometimes sold for only a few dollars. Sears and Roebuck stores and hardware stores had them loose in barrels and people could just dig whatever they wanted out.
Since people wanted a nice looking factory hunting rifle, it was natural to 'dress up' the old battle rifle. Many were crudely done but there were some that are actually works of art. (Unfortunately most are the former)
Yes on Richland Ave on the right just past Reynolds St. And on second thought, it may actually have been a carbine. I don't know and I feel foolish for jumping to conclusions. I don't know enough about Krags to identify it for sure, I just had the long version in my head and made an assumption. If I passed up a good find by mistake, it's fine by me because I wouldn't have been ready for that purchase anyway at the time. I'm not sure if it's still there.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
It was a rifle thats had it's barrel cut down to 24''. Did you notice how Bubba the Gunplumber attached the 1903a3 front sight with a screw up through the bottom of the band? If fact, most all the milsurps in that place are Bubba rejects. Way over priced too. The owner claims to be getting in some 1903's and a couple Krags soon that are supposed to be in original configuration. We'll see.
Well I'm glad I wasn't wrong, but no I don't have the knowledge to have known the exact bubba'd details that you saw. However, I agree about all the other things. I handled most of their milsurps and wasn't impressed with any. They just didn't feel right. They all lacked character and seemed to look wrong. I'll never go there to buy a milsurp. One thing they did have though was a Springfield 45-70 trapdoor rifle. It was about the only thing in there that looked like it might be all original.
Meat,
If it was a carbine, it would probably not have had the '03 sight. BUT, these old Bubba-jobs can make a pretty decent hunting rifle, AND no harm if they get banged up in the field. Once you use the Krag hunting you will probably wonder why youmessed around with any of those other rifles.
jn
Eventually I'd like to add Krag to my collection, but bubba'd guns to me are no more interesting to have than modern rifles (I own no modern rifles). Some may frown on me for taking my milsurps hunting, but they're already war weathered and I take care not to add any new dings in the wood when I take them to the field.
You'll find that quite a few of us here take our milsurps hunting regularly. Have you not seen the hunting with milsurps threads?
Nope, I haven't. Perhaps I'll take a look.
(EDIT)
I can't seem to find them. What forum are they under?
Not positive but I think it's in either The Watering Hole or The Milsurps General discussion Forum.
I've got a badly treated 1894 Krag that I love to go hunting with. It points just like a Win '94 carbine, natural like.
2 years ago the Bro-in-law reached behind his beer fridge in the garage and drug out some dusty old rifles. A Danzig manufactured large ring mauser ( bubba'd of course) and a mystery rifle which turned out to be a...drum roll, please...Win-Lee 1895 Navy!
Sad part of the story...bubba had got to it. Even sadder...he misplaced the bolt when he was carving the new stock:banghead:
It may turn up in the next month or two though. The old fella who had them originally is passing soon (sadly). It may turn up when his house gets emptied.
I digress though, this fall the Krag is going to get blooded again. I bought 250 rds of mixed hunting ammo and a set of dies, smell the venison cooking?
Just look through the ads in a 1961 edition of The American Rifleman. You will see 1941 Johnsons for $49, Brit No.4s for $13, S&W 1917s for $25, Colt 1917s for $30, Springfield 03s & 1917 Enfields for $30, Mausers from $17, Jungle Carbines for $25, and even Garands and m1 Carbines for $80.
All above comments are true. I collect Rosses, and feel almost physical pain when I see a Bubba one. But, on the other hand, back in the day, the Rosses were disliked and had a bad reputation, so no one thought the full wood ones wouldever be collectible (even in the 1980's), and I doubt anyone thought twice about cutting them back for deer rifles. The Lee-Enfields were sold already sporterized through Sears and Eatons, and were a cheap, reliable, foolproof deer rifle which shot readily available ammunition.
I remember when I started collecting milsurps in 1984--I was 16 and had just gotten my FAC. That year, or maybe the next year, was the year the Swedish Mausers were released on the market. A local store had them by the bushel, for $49 if memory serves me, with the bayonets being about $10 or $15. A lot of those were sportered up, and now a nice, matching one is between $350 and $400. Full wood Lee-Enfields were scarce as hell. I remember looking for a year or more for a full wood WWI SMLE. Then, s***loads of them were released from various stores (Marstar had beautiful Lithgows you could pick your date of manufacture on I remember) and the Long Branches appeared on the market.
I think every generation has had its kick at the just released milsurp can, but we are the last. All milsurps now are full auto or "evil black rifles" in the eyes of the government, so once all the stuff from the 1950's has been released, there won't be any more. The SKS's, Mosin's and SVT 40's are I think the last of the big releases we'll ever see. From now on, what's available will be what's already available, and will become scarcer. The nice Swedes are drying up, the Yugo SKS's are harder to find in unmessed with condition, and even the WWI/WWII full wood Lee-Enfields are getting higher in price. Wish I could go back in time to talk to me when I was 16 and tell me to buy about 50 select Swedish Mauser rifles and 20 carbines and stash them........they'd be worth a hell of lot more than the savings bonds and RRSP's bought at the same time.
Ed
I used to get all twisted and bent when it came to bubbed military rifles but over time my opinion has become more moderate. When it comes right down to it the reason prices are what they are today is in part thanks to people butchering milsurp rifles. On the other hand back when these things were made there was a genuine need for inexpensive hunting rifles. A good family friend of mine was a WWII vet who used to hunt with a trapdoor springfield. A friend of his commented on how primnative and recoil prone that rifle was so his friend got him a Krag and sporterized it for him. Naturally that ruined the poor Krag but it went on to harvest deer for 50 years- far longer than it ever served in gov't service. Sure it is a shame it was sporterized but had it not happened he'd never have been able to afford the $75 or more that a civilian rifle cost. It may be unpleasant but that rifle had a far more useful life as a civilian tool than it ever did in its short military service.
Recently I have run across a few very well executed sporterized Krags.. One was so nice I even felt compelled to buy it. It occurred to me that there are enough poorly executed examples out there that there might even be a market for well done sporters made from these donors. People buy repro 1895 Winchesters to hunt with- why not hunt with a well done sporterized Krag?
My parents were actually quite opposed to us buying guns when my brother and I first started collecting (they got over it). Our first rifles were out of the local antique shop--mine was a sporterized 1917 Lithgow SMLE and my brother's was a Parks and Rec Ross Mk III. I wish I'd kept the Lithgow. It had been done very simply, but was well balanced, had a nice patina, and was smooth as silk. When I went bear hunting with a friend of mine up in northern SK several years later, I took along a .303 Lee Speed which someone had refinished and shortened the barrel on and also a Ross sporter for another fellow. Still have both rifles, and if I were to take up deer hunting, I think it would be a tossup which one I'd take with me. Both are pre-WWI, solid, reliable, smooth and handle nicely. Hmmm.........
MPi-KMS-72 is right--these old Lee-Enfields, Krags, etc have probably been more useful sporterized than they were during their service lives. Having said that, I still like the original military ones, and like to wonder who carried them, if they survived, what they went through, etc.
Ed
Ed
I visited the Kansas National Guard Armory earlier this week due to a travelling WWI exhibit being in town. There had 3 beautiful Krag rifles displayed. In the display that had one of them in it, it gave an account of the Kansas National Guard being activated and sent down to the Texas/Mexican border during the Pancho Villa troubles. I believe this was in 1915-16 time frame and the Kansas folk had the Krags for this deployment.
Another one of the Krags had been involved in the Philippine insurrection but it was unclear as to what unit or service it was with.
I'm guessing that they did a lot of service with National Guard units.
Some krags were in service longer than others. I'm sure everyone here has seen the pics or troops armed with them in Europe in WWI. Supposedly they never made it to front line units though.
The Krag sporter I really felt compelled to buy was one that was sporterized by M. S. Risley. Most people today probably don't recognize his name but he was a gunsmith from Earlville, NY- he did a lot of work for Harvey Donaldson. To me that alone made it a cool rifle to buy. These guys are long gone but that rifle is, in a way, a tangible link to them. I'll post pics of it next week.
It's possible that a few of them did trade fire with the Huns, as there are a few instances of railway battalions and other rear-but-near units coming under fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by MPi-KMS-72
I consider sporterization to be a better fate than the alternative...I'm still trying to find more about a report that large numbers of Trapdoor Springfields were actually dumped at sea by the U.S. Army in 1937-38.
Found this one at a local gun show yesterday. It's probably a horible sight for some of you. I just fell in love with it.
That is a nice simple one. Are you going to hunt with it?
I will probably only shoot paper targets with it. But I might take it hog hunting.