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Can someone tell me something about the rifle in the attached pictures. Sorry there is no "full picture" but it has been shortened about 5cm (both stock and barrel). It has a lot of strange markings on nearly all parts. Also I've never seen the ring on the left side of the receiver ring before, note the small broad arrow on it!
It's based on a Savage, S/N on the butt of the stock, the receiver ring, the underside of the stock and the bolt match.
Ah, the rare Savage/Fazakerly saddle ring carbine. ;)
It looks to be one of the last of the Savage No4 Mk1*. Can't speak to the rest of it, but it looks interesting.
Based on the cross-screw in pic #2, looks like it was converted to a Mk1/3. Not much more I can add.Quote:
Originally Posted by limpetmine
Very rare rifle. We have a FIVE digit number after the O C, (zero C) with 1944, 1945 and 1946 (?) dates on the wood, receiver and barrel, a Birmingham Proof House stamp on the receiver, and of course, the saddle ring.
The X serial numbers are assumed to be for and Experimental rifle and it is Number 1 of how many? And the work was done at Enfield (EFD)? The "Broad Arrow" on the stock and the rear of the bolt handle is the seldom seen "left offset shaft" type but the one on the bottom of the forestock is closer to specifications.
Until otherwise proven, I think I will keep my hands on my wallet on this one.
.
What has given the game away and spells out to me in big letters, with bells on them 'FAKE' and a pxxx-poor one at that is the fact that 'supposedly' Fazakerley stamped the side of the body with the new designation. This would never happen. Armourers were not allowed to stamp the body side (although we did, say, to replace the letter 'T' for example) but the factory would never stamp the body. It would always be over engraved.
In short a pxxx-poor fake. That's only my opinion as an enthusiastic amateur
The second give-away is that there wasn't a lot of worldwide call for horse mounted riflemen in 1945 - or whenever - to warrant a saddle ring. But you never know................
Yep, definitely the product of a fertile imagination but rather less expertise........at least IMHO.
ATB
I suppose out there somewhere there exists an "advanced" collector who only collects fakes. What stories he could tell. At least the butchers seem to think they are out there.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by breakeyp
Regards,
Doug
The saddle ring looks like a pistol lanyard ring. Also, has someone tried to mark a DDE number on it.
Was there even an Experimental No. 4 "Carbine"? And what should all the X ... markings mean? And any idea why it says "No. 1" on the receiver?
Could be from the late chris Barber,s collection? I,ve had one his rare and collectable peices through my hands but lucky for me it was sale or return, I know quite a few were stung while he was still alive, buying some of the crap he had before he fell of his perch.
This rifle came from Australia, I mainly bought it because it was Savage based as my main interest lies within US produced military rifles.
Promo,
I would recomend you return it ASAP, you may be down the postage, but it happens, better than the loss of postage than the full price etc.
Here's a picture of the complete rifle
More on the No4 carbine. When I was an Armourer (among many….) at the main Northern District Ordnance Depot at Ngariawahia in New Zealand, in the mid 60’s we had loads of No4 rifles (the HUGE Ordnance Depot had THOUSANDS of them…………) and a few ex Malaya/Fiji No5 rifles. I was chatting to my boss WO2 Jock Annandale and he told me that in 1944/45 New Zealand was expected/required to prepare and train her quota of troops for the forthcoming invasion of the islands, Singapore and Malaya. Oz and NZ were to invade from the South Britain and India from the west.
Australia had already made, trialed and set aside plans for a lightweight rifle, Canada had done the same and Britain had done the same too. NZ had a surplus of No4 rifles from the US/Canada and so looked into the speedy conversion of making lightweight No4 rifles that would not take up vast capacity that she didn’t have. So simplicity was the essence and lightness the aim.
NZ produced several short barreled No4 rifles that in short, looked like the front end of a No4 that finished at or about the lower band. The drawings and the prototypes were laid up and he showed me a set of the old blueprints that were in the technical library at the Ordnance Depot. The rifles were stored at (I seem to recall, but tell me if I’m wrong some of you Kiwi’s at the Ordnance Depot at Palmerston North) but by the 50’s, along with a lot of lend lease stuff had been destroyed or purchased or returned.
As for the project, I suppose that like the Canadian lightweight and the Australian No6, once the bomb had done its work, there was no need for rifles and the projects died a natural death. Minds were concentrated elsewhere as they say. Mind you, atomic bombs do appear to have that effect on people.
But that’s not all………. Bruce Gorton from Invercargill had his teeth into some parts of this project/story for many years before his death (not due to the bomb incidentally……) and was interested in what I’d said and even contacted WO2 Annandale but he’d also died and the Ordnance Depot had closed. But he did unearth documentation at the wherever you Kiwis keep old documents. He converted a barrel from a standard one based on memory from one I saw at Ngaruawahia (that started the whole conversation with ‘Jock’ Annandale off………). I turned one up too and made a fore-end based on guestimated guesswork. Apparently the RCNZ were gearing up to do the work after completing their Sten Gun contracts. Gorton even had some of the contract paperwork from them too.
So there have been No4 carbines, but not like the one that started this thread Jim (sorry to you trekkies.....) too
Have any of you Kiwis ever had a mention or sniff of this short lived project?
differnet angle.....
The ring is for fullbore target shooting, its gets the mounting points for the sling closer to the axis of the bore and wont cause the butt to toe in or out of you place just a smidge too much pressure on it, seen this on a few old omarks but the ring was screwed into the stock.
The X's may have been aded for fire arms registration purposes if the number clased with another fire arm in the database.
Barrel has been shortened due to damage at the muzzle? some of the old boys talk of chopping the last 2 inches off omark barrels when the started losing their accuracy and getting it back on target, could be the same thing.