1943 BSA No4 MK1 T scope, tin and transit chest, any good ?

Good Evening every one. This is my first post so please be kind …..

First of all I’d like to give my thanks for all the hard work that's obviously gone on building up the knowledge base here. I have joined up mostly to research the Number 4 MK1 T as it has been a long term goal of mine to buy a good honest one. I have spent quite a few hours working my way through the web site, the fantastic virtual tours and also the Armourer’s perspective book by Mr Laidler & Skennerton (excellent book– totally invaluable)

I’ve recently found one for sale with a chest and tin, which I should be able to get a good look over this weekend, but in the meantime the seller has sent me some very blurry photos (with his apologies as to the ability of the camera) to get an idea of what to look for when I see it in the metal as it were. It’s with a scope tin & chest, all seeming to be matching.

Hope it’s OK if I post the pictures here and my thoughts, it would a great help if people could chime in with their observations and help me learn what to look for.

Rifle:
Basically it’s a BSA 1943, serial number B30XXX - so it’s close to some that are mentioned on here, but I’m not sure if the early date means that some of the standards may not have been too rigidly applied at this point in time.

I think the “T” stamp on the left hand side is in the correct font (hard to see on the pic) it supposedly has the “S” sighting stamp and what looks to be the crown over “E” Enfield examiners mark, though this is again hard to see on the photo.

The scope pads look to have been off quite a few times on the front & a couple on the back (not unusual?)

The Holland and Holland S51 looks to be in an unusual font from all the others I have seen, I presume this may not be original ???

A scope serial number 6804 is stamped on the wrist.

Attachment 28532Attachment 28533Attachment 28534Attachment 28535Attachment 28536Attachment 28537Attachment 28538


Scope:

In the photo it reads
TEL. SIGHTING
No 32. MK.1.
OS. 466A KL
1942 REG. No 6804
/¦\
Can’t see if there is an extra line after this, but don’t think so.


The markings on the rings are not marked in white paint.
The scope mount has the rifles number on it. Not sure if the profile of the rear leg looks a little strange to me.
Attachment 28545Attachment 28544Attachment 28543Attachment 28542Attachment 28541Attachment 28540Attachment 28539Attachment 28546

Scope Tin:
Stamped:
CASE, STG.TEL.
No8 MARK1
B.E. Ltd 1941 OS906A

Stampings look a little erratic, not sure if these were hand done ?.

Attachment 28547Attachment 28548

Chest,
I don’t know much about these, but is marked
RIFLE NO.4 MK1 T
839482
SIGHT TELE NO.32 MK1
6804

Attachment 28549Attachment 28550Attachment 28551Attachment 28552



So, allowing for the fact that I haven’t checked the battle sights, front woodwork and a few other areas, I guess my biggest concerns are

The unusual S51 stamp on the butt and the scope

No white markings on the scope drums

General finish of the scope (allowing for the low res picture)

“Scope Serial number” 6804 that is marked on the rifle, scope case and chest, but on the scope the number 6804 seems to be a reference number and not a serial number. (If it is the serial number then it should be a Kershaw MK1 – I cant find any reference pics of one of them to compare)


Any thoughts on the above and what else I’ve missed? It would be good to go armed with more knowledge than i currently have, or at least know its it likely to be a waste of time before I start.

Thanks all, a No4 MK1 T would be the biggest purchase I’ve made in collecting deacts, so I really want to get it right first time.

It's only my humble opinion but:

S51 does indeed look suspect
Difficult to say much about front pad due to limited photo views & blurriness.
Rear pad does not look to be genuinely from that rifle
Butt wrist (where scope number is situated) has been heavily sanded down. Note it is below the level of the butt socket.
Rifle itself COULD be a real 4T but would have had to be stripped of pads & , with later pads subsequently refitted
Rifle has definietly been renumbered. B prefix 5 digit number dates from early 1944, not 1943.
Scope is correct, but you do NOT find 1941 dated scopes on matching 1943/44 era rifles.
Scope tin bears hand stamped markings - originals were generally rolled on.
Bracket does look like it may be a real Rose Brothers product, but looks to have been 'cleaned up'.
There are people on this forum who know far more about transit chests than I but it looks too pretty to me...

Hope this helps, & remember, it's only my opinion. No doubt the seller has given his too!!

ATB

I would be very skeptical of this rifle based on my limited collection of genuine "T's"
1. Agree with you all on the "S51" stamp
2. Agree rifle serial number is not consistent with a 1943 BSA - and has been re stamped
3, Label inside chest is dated 6/45 unless my eyes deceive me
oh heck, I agree with everything else Roger has said

No disagreement with any of the above.

I would say that the telescope is genuine as is the chest. But the rest looks to me like it's a what used to be called '....a bitza'

Further to the other comments. The butt is definately not the original for a reason that I won't go into

This is only my opinion as an enthusiastic amateur.......... like the enthusiastic amateur who put the rifle together

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

This is only my opinion as an enthusiastic amateur.......... like the enthusiastic amateur who put the rifle together

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Peter ... ;)

There's a "Shakespearean" side to you ... :lol:

Regards,
Doug

A question I have to ask....

Why are there so many punch marks (dimples?) around the scope mounting bracket screws on the lugerfan's No.4Mk1(T) example he's looking at buying?

Attachment 28565
Click PIC to Enlarge

As compared to known "all correct" No.4Mk1(T) examples, such as the one in the MKL?

1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper Rifle

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG
Click PIC to Enlarge

Does that just mean that this particular scope bracket has been un-mounted and re-mounted several times on a receiver?

Regards,
Doug

Hi all,

Many thanks to everyone who replied. Glad to know I wasn’t too far out with my judgement. It’s not the type I’m really looking for. If anyone knows of an honest unmolested example around for sale, please let me know via pm. As yet I’ve not see too many dealers that have them for sale & it seems way to easy to buy one that been put together. Looks like sticking with the recognised H&H conversion may be the best way to minimise my risks.

Have to say the dealer was very helpful and didn’t push this as a fully matching all correct example, but one that required some research.

Couple of questions to follow up:

• Re the incorrect BSA serial number, is there an online reference matching numbers to production years somewhere. Seems it would be a good thing to have to hand for the future.

• Does the scope look re worked? I thought the finish would have been blued and had a serial number visible somewhere.

• Would all H&H conversions had the crown over E examiners mark forward of the stock on the metal by the bolt, or is this mark likely to missing on some of the early conversions?

Thanks again for all your help really very much appreciated.

In answer to Badgers question. On well used No4T's and L42's, such as those used on the courses here at Warminster (and Brecon) by the Sniper Division, they really got a pasting. As a result of continual shooting and recoil moments about an axis, the soldered front pad would shear and make the screws loose by literally stretching them. It was a never ending battle and every time you put new screws in, you re-staked the pad into the screw.

So you can see the evidence before you of a WELL used and abused rifle. There was much discussion about an answer but generally speaking, if you tinned the surfaces correctly (no gorilla glue or thread-lock or loktite here I hasten to add.........) and sweated it back together and at the same time ran the solder down the screw shanks/threads AND screwed them up xxxxing tight so that they cooled down and contracted into place they were as good as gold.

But I always told the Armourers under my wing, especially those on the sniper div, where I learned my stuff about them, to stake the metal from the expendable screw into a suitable stake mark in the pad. If you don't screw the front pads down properly, you just end up chasing them around and around. But to be honest, you'd never get one staked to this extent, even on the old thrashed to death No4's and L42's used in the training wing because by that time, the barrels and bodies will have been worn out. The rear pad was usually trouble free because the 1/4" rear thumbscrew was sufficient to prevent any torque load. And we didn't EVER use the same screw again opr butcher the heads either. Or if you did, you used a scraper to remove the swarfed screwdriver edge

Has that answered the Q Badger and everyone?

Can we all agree that it's very probably a 'mid Asian' heap of tat, tarted up to make a quick buck? I'd like to give it a quick mechanical 'in-inspection' Eh...... Son, Tankie and Skippy!

I think I saw this at Beltring this year .... (well the box at least) the main bits look original.... but..... the fittings are a poor replacement in course grain pine!
I dont know about the rifle, I work on 5.56mm coke cans... (other soft drink cans are available)

Hi Lugerfan,
IMHO the scope has NOT been refinished. I suspect the original blue on the scope tube has simply worn off over the years. The scope is right enough, but looks 'well loved'. The black paint on the turrets is probably original & has just survived better than the blueing.

I don't know of any written source on serial numbers but there are enough people who have seen/owned/handled enough 4T's over the years to have a good idea where number ranges start & finish. Most BSA 4T's date from 1943/44/45 & during 1943 a sequence of two letters (an 'A' followed by a second letter that progressed through the alphabet as the year went on: AA, AB, AC...........AQ, AR, AS etc) & then 4 digits, was used. In fact it continued over into the very beginning of 1944, but was soon replaced by a sequence of 5 figures starting with a '3' & after the first production run that had no prefix, a letter was added at the beginning. eg B 32657, G 31965, R 38902. This system continued until the end of production. It seems that the changeover from 1944 to 45 occurred in the R prefix range as rifles bearing either date can be found. I have not seen any 4T's with letter prefixes after X, although I have seen a 1947 dated No4 in standard trim bearing a Y prefix serial number.

Without getting overly complicated, the vast majority of BSA H&H 4T conversions will have the D6E Enfield examiners mark, but this is often missing on earlier conversions (1943 & before), or may be present in a non-standard place (I own several rifles of 1941 mfr., converted by H&H & which bear this examiner's mark on the knox. Odd, but true).

I have a No4T for sale at the moment, but whilst it is 100% genuine, it is a mis-match, has been refurbished & it is a section 1 firearm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I don't know of any written source on serial numbers but there are enough people who have seen/owned/handled enough 4T's over the years to have a good idea where number ranges start & finish. Most BSA 4T's date from 1943/44/45 & during 1943 a sequence of two letters (an 'A' followed by a second letter that progressed through the alphabet as the year went on: AA, AB, AC...........AQ, AR, AS etc) & then 4 digits, was used. In fact it continued over into the very beginning of 1944, but was soon replaced by a sequence of 5 figures starting with a '3' & after the first production run that had no prefix, a letter was added at the beginning. eg B 32657, G 31965, R 38902. This system continued until the end of production. It seems that the changeover from 1944 to 45 occurred in the R prefix range as rifles bearing either date can be found. I have not seen any 4T's with letter prefixes after X, although I have seen a 1947 dated No4 in standard trim bearing a Y prefix serial number.

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OK, so to just jump in, my No4 T is a '45 dated BSA, X33053. So it is quiet late in conversion then.

Yep, that's right.

Like this one

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sday0301-1.jpg

Quote:

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I don't know of any written source on serial numbers...

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Stratton's work has pretty good info on S/N ranges based on observed rifles. Covers the basics pretty well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrhead75

Stratton's work has pretty good info on S/N ranges based on observed rifles. Covers the basics pretty well.

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Thanks - One copy of Stratton ordered up...