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Someone has a mouser K98 wanting to trade me for my M1 garand just have a question.
It has 2 date stamps 1941 and 1943 and it has 2 eagle swatikas on it. What would this be worth? And what is up with the two dates? Oh it is in exelent condition. All original.
pictures? Also, generally speaking, unless it is an all matching k98 or you have a pretty beat up garand I would not consider that a fair trade. Typically, a russian capture 98k (the most common on the market) command about $300-$400 max while it is hard to find even a decent Garand for less than $650. A matching 98k could certainly be worth around $1000 but we would have to see it. Of the two dates, I want to say there are a few known examples but I am not positive. I know there are dual contracter codes found on rifles but I am not sure about dates. You might be confusing a number code and a date? Pictures would be great if possible but be sure to find out if the numbers match on the 98k or you might be getting the proverbial short end of the stick...
Cheers!
ok well i did the trade, pics tommorow here is what I got. The metal on the gun is free of rust and the riflings are in excelent shape. The swasticas are clear and not worn down. All numbers match. Barrel, stock, and reciever. It even has the original sling with it. The stock itself has worn areas and scratches on it. Plus it even has an original sling. Even got a bayonet with original case, but it is pretty beat up. All in all it looks like a great rifle. Plus I didnt see a second date stamp. The date is 1940.
The m1 was a 44 bolt, 51 recieved and barrel and had a refinished stock. Plus someone electric penciled numbers into the bolt and the rifleings were about shot.
Ah well we eagerly await photos! Take note that on rifles made around 1940, virtually EVERYTHING will be numbered to the rifle. Screws, bands, rear sites, stock, you name it!
Does not sound even to me. Waiting for pictures of both.
Mauser used S/42, then 42, and the byf as their manufacturer code. That may be what you are calling a date.
No it is stamped on top 1940, I'll get the pictures of both, also where is the serial number? If it even has one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers
---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 PM ----------
I noticed. Even the bolt matches as far as I can tell without taking it totally apart is that it is all original. See the value difference doesnt mean a whole lot to me, well it does some, but this rifle will be used to hunt with. The M1 was just too heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by m4a3sherman
Serial number will be on the left side of the receiver ring. Let me be the first to beg you NOT to scope this rifle for hunting!!!
Left side of the reciver ring? Only thing there is 273 which is the matching number. Oh trust me I wouldnt scope something like this. I got it mainly for bad weather hunting. Scopes tend to fog up.Quote:
Originally Posted by m4a3sherman
Ok I decided to put my pics on a new thread. Go to my other one if you dont know the skinny.
But something new I seen. There is 2 small eagle with a 3 didget number on the barrel, reciever, bolt and bottom plate. The barrel and reciever have 855, the bolt and bottom plate has 280, but written in really fine etching, so fine i needed a magnifing glass to see it is the number 273 which matches the barrel, stock and reciever. Just cant figure that one out.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/12/008-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/12/006-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/12/003-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/12/002-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/12/001-1.jpg
It is much better to keep all posts together on the same subject rather than starting a new thread.
Just as I suggested, the 42 is the manufacturer code for Mauser, and 1940 is the only date.
Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers
Mauser used S/42, then 42, and the byf as their manufacturer code. That may be what you are calling a date.
No it is stamped on top 1940, I'll get the pictures of both, also where is the serial number? If it even has one.
From your last post.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/zjxget-1.jpg
Sorry about that. Any thoughts on the other little things?
That is for sure a Russian Capture. Even looking at the other pics on your other post, that is definitely an RC. That was not an even trade unless that garand was beat to hell... But if its what you want.... Also not an original sling or at least not original to that rifle. It is a Soviet carbine sling. And you're missing your band spring.
well the garand was built from parts from about 15 years, from 44 to about 60. Someone reconditioned the stock removing all cartouches, the barrel was almost shot out. I think your wrong on the russian capture because other sites say look for import marks, which this dont have. Im am reaserching the crap out of it and everyone says different things lol
Ok did a little more reasearch and leaning towards a RC. The serial number on this weapon is 273. Is that a russian serial number or german? If German wouldnt a low serial number be worth more?
The number on the metal is german, the number stamped into the stock is Russian. The huge X on the top of the receiver is a dead giveaway for Russian capture. Additionally, it did not look like your floor plate or any other parts matched that serial number. To be clear, 273 is your serial number; and all of your parts should be stamped either 273 or 73 if they match the rifle. While the bolt may match itself, it is not original to that rifle. Also, anything electro-penciled is Russian; this will look like scribbles and not stamps. For sure buddy, that is a Russian Capture. The 3 digit serial number really makes no difference considering most are only 4 digit with a small number being 5 digit. Honestly, if the bore is nice, you are probably looking at about $375 or so worth of rifle. If nothing else, you have a good shooter.
A Russian capture. No doubt. Worth? $300-$350. Does not appear to be in very good condition. The Garand should be in at around $500.00, if in nice shape.
Well im not worried much about price. Although someone, in real life, offerd me $200 for the bolt, and mag plates because they all match. They just dont match the rifle. The 273 etched into the bottom mag plate is faint. I thought it might have been done in pencil but I can remove it. So I dont know. Like i said, originally I got an M1 to use as a rainy day hunting rifle. It was to heavy so I traded it for the kar. It will serve my purpose.
Fair enough. The RC mausers are a part of the 98k story and presently just aren't worth a lot right now but trust me they will be worth a lot in the future, just like all milsurps. I wouldn't remove electropenciled stuff, just leave it be and shoot and enjoy it! If nothing else, it will be a good shooter- I recommend Prvi-Partizan ammunition whom offer a soft point for hunting. You can order from Aimsurplus.com.
Good luck!
Thanks for the ammo tip, been wondering about that!
We'll, if you refer to any library entry for a K98k in the Germany - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here), with thanks to Advisory Panel member Claven2, youl'll find an excellent article under each Collectors Comments and Feedback section which addresses that question about Russian Captures.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronmayle
There's also several examples of Code 42 Oberndorfs by year of manufacture, so you'll get an idea as to what kind of markings should have appeared on yours.
I've copied one here for your reference. :thup:
Quote:
2. CAUTION: How do I tell if I have a rebuilt RC (Russian Capture) and not an original unaltered K98k?
Russian Capture K98k's all share similar traits. The are all WW2 era German Karabiners (though some are former Gew98's the Nazis had converted to K98k spec - rare though!). Most have matching receiver and barrel.
When the Russians came into these guns they stockpiled them and promptly began doing other more important things like rebuilding their cities, etc. Many RC rifles sat for month or even years exposed to the elements. By the late 1940's, many of these rifles were in an advanced state of deterioration, while some remained like new.
In true Russian style, a colossal public make-work project was undertaken. The ENTIRE inventory of German small arms then in Russian possession (roughly half the total wartime output of Nazi Germany's arms production) was ordered to undergo refurbishment and as many useable arms as possible to be made ready. Why? Russia was paranoid. The Cold War was freezing over and Russia feared invasion from the West. Also, it was a cheap source of arms they could export to allies in North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, and every other wanna-be commi armpit of the world without depleting their "front line" weapons stockpiles.
The Russians took all their K98k's, and totally disassembled them except for the barrel. Bores were inspected and those found to be acceptable (ie, some pitting OK - so long as it's still safely shootable, much like with their refurbed Mosins) were set aside. Those that were deemed too far gone were recycled into steel for tractor parts or Order of Lennin medals, or whatever.
The small parts were all hot-dip reblued. Rusty parts were wire brushed or sandblasted first. These were placed indiscriminately in bins. The stocks were also inspected for serviceability. Those deemed acceptable were retained, those unacceptable were burned.
When the rifles were re-assembled no effort was made to match parts. A new (used) bolt was assembled and fitted to the receiver and the whole affair was assembled into a rifle from the binned parts. When done, most parts were electropencilled with the rifle's serial number and a flat was sanded on the left side of the wood stock (think big belt sander and half-drunk worker). The rifle's serial number was stamped there running parallel to the rifle's bore line. (Yugos are stamped perpendicular, for comparison)
Once complete, the whole rifle was generally painted in cheap shellac as a preservative agent - these are often not cosmolened for some reason - crated up and sent to war reserve, especially in the frontier states like Ukraine (which stored them in underground "nuclear proof" depleted salt mines). Today, cash strapped former Soviet states are all too happy to sell these to us.
It's difficult to say what percentage of captured arms survived the rebuild programs, but I'd imagine maybe half (or less) would be a good guess. Many of these arms sat out in the open for LONG periods of time before being rebuilt, so attrition due to the elements was probably a factor.
It's also wrong to assume that RC's are, in fact, "captures". At any given moment, less than 2 million Nazi troops would have served on the Russian front. Not all would have had K98K's. Over 14 Million K98k's were built and most experts agree that somewhere around 7 million likely ended up in Russian hands after the war. Throughout the whole war, it's doubtful a full 7 million K98k's traveled to east Prussia and beyond.
When Nazi Germany surrendered to the Allies, the Whermacht assembled at depots all over Europe and turned in their arms. Additionally, government arms stockpiles and factories were captured and divied up by the victorious armies. At hostilities cessation, every Mauser weapon in the future East Germany (and all points east) would have become what we think of as an "RC K98k". Public ownership of guns in the USSR was banned as well. So whether a rifle was taken from a dead private in 1944 Minsk or if the NKVD knocked on a door in Berlin in 1947 and confiscated the arm from a retired volkspolitzei prison guard, it still ended up in the stocks of RC mausers. In fact, it's safe to say the MAJORITY of such guns are likely NOT battlefield captures. ...... (Feedback by "Claven2")
Regards,
Doug
Don't look for the Russian Capture K98k's to be worth a lot in your lifetime. As something gets older it does not necessarily become worth a lot of money. A good example is the U.S. Model 1873 Trapdoor rifle. First made in 1873, and made for approximately 20 years with less than 700,000 being made. Virtually new original examples have gone up in value, but average used Trapdoors can still be purchased in the $500 range. Except for rare examples, the U.S. Krag enjoys about the same popularity and value.
Well at least it only has parts from 2 rifles as far as I can tell. And the nazi symbols are still there and that is rare. I just got an offer on it so I am considering it.
I apologize if this sounds like knocking, but it is simply what I see as reality:
does not match up withQuote:
Originally Posted by ronmayle
There must also have been millions of K98k parts floating around, in the form of unserviceable rifles. I suspect that many of those parts have by now been integrated into mixmasters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger
Consider yourself geographically fortunate! If I could find a shooter-grade Trapdoor for that price, it would no longer be on the market! Prices here tend strongly to 4-figures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers
:wave:
Patrick
Yea, the trapdoor I briefly had was pretty rough and it sold for $650
The serial number range for the 1940, 42 code is 1660 to 5499gg. The rifles did have flat butt plates untill later in 1940 when they changed to the cupped butt plate. The waffenampts on the "42" code rifles changed in 1940 from waffenampt "63" to waffenampt "655". Some no letter range rifles can be found with "63" proofs. A mixture of "63" and "655" proofs can be found on rifles in the "a" range but as soon as the "63" proofed parts were used up only the "655" waffenampts appear.
Your serial number is 273cc. In 1940 Mauser Orberndorf made a 273, 273a, 273b, 273c (through 9999z), then 273aa, 273bb, and 273cc. They did the same in other years and other manufacturers did the same but not all manufacturers and all years got as high as the cc suffix.
The waffenamt change started in the 1939 u block. I have a u block K98k with both waffenamts.Quote:
Originally Posted by GUTS
If you are happy with it, that's all that matters ronmayle. :thup:
From what you said about your Garand you weren't that far apart with trade value, especially if you didn't want the Garand and got something you want. I wouldn't feel bad at all about your trade. i know the RC's don't have a lot of collector appeal, but for some mismatched stamps on parts the Mauser is still a very neat rifle and a bargain as far as I'm concerned. I know I'm a minority too, but I much prefer shooting my bolt guns than my Garand.
When I saw your first photo on page 1 of this thread, the crude 'X' jumped right out that it was an RC without taking into account all the other factors that also are traits of an RC. I have one that I knowingly bought as a RC and like it just fine - It's accurate and I can shoot it all I want without worrying about any of the things you consider when shooting a top collector rifle. No worrying about dinging the stock, etc, will make yours a great and enjoyable hunting rifle which is what you were looking for to begin with. I also think hunting with any milsurp is great fun - especially when you consider the history of the weapon you hold in your hands and it's still functioning perfectly after all these years. The caliber is great for most any North American game and unlike a Garand you can use about any ammunition. The action is second to almost none and Mausers have been used as outstanding hunting rifles for many years. Because of this, finding good ammo is no problem.
My RC has a big import stamp as most RC's do and some of the swastikas have been punched. If yours doesn't have an import stamp and the swastikas aren't punched I'd think it was at least better than most RC's if for no other value than personal satisfaction. Also, Russia or whoever dumped all those RC's seems to have run out in recent years, or at least I don't see stacks of them at gun shows around here anymore.
Looking forward to your range report. (The sights take some getting accustomed to, or at least I had some trouble at first)