Carbines in Vietnam

I recently bought a large book about Vietnam and I was surprised at the number of photos in it showing American soldiers carrying M1 carbines. I didn't realize there were so many used there.

I just ran across this photo of a crew chief holding onto his carbine in 1963 early in the war -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3d_bCopy-1.jpg

Can any of the vets shed some light. Were there situations where you could choose a weapon?

I understand how some early photos showed U.S. soldiers with carbines, but there were many late photos too.

A great pic Harlan. I hope JimF4 chimes in on this one ! I'd really appreciate hearing more about this subject. Mike.

Not my pic but I have been told this is a genuine one of Stormin Norman with the Carbine of his choice in Vietnam. I am wary of second hand info. Looks like an M1A1 with a 30 to me. There is much info around on this subject Harlan, we just have to wait until it is forthcoming. Mike.

There were plenty of carbines about. All of the Mike Force, Nungs, and all of the Koreans used WW2 American weapons. The PF guards ( VC tax collectors) who sat in hammocks by every bridge were always carrying a carbine. We would wave, they would wave back.

As far as using these old weapons on an everyday basis; there were conex boxes full of old weapons that were captured, seized. stolen or just on the T.O.E. at most camps. If you wanted to carry one on a convoy or guard duty, nobody seemed to care. I've seen guys with 45 Thompsons with 100 rd drums, Marines carrying PPSH-41s, all kinds of stuff. At MACV headquarters in Nha Trang there was a fully equipped aircraft sighted and tripod, MG34 that was captured in the box. Here's a photo of me using a Grease Gun which I found in our box. I also carried a Browning .380 all year long as a hide away weapon. We had several stolen 45s that we kept for use when traveling. This was early in the war, things undoubtedly changed later.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...39bcf413-1.jpg

Dave thank you for your service. Do you have two mags taped together in that photo? My Uncle Hank was there in '66, First Infantry Div. They had M14's and he carried the M79 grenade launcher most of his tour.

Regards.....Frank

It is hard to say but the first photo looks to be an M2.

Bolt appears to be open?

Good Eye guys,
Bolt open and selector switch.
Can anyone make out the mag?
15 or 30rd?

Charlie-painter777

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Originally Posted by Mikey51

Not my pic but I have been told this is a genuine one of Stormin Norman with the Carbine of his choice in Vietnam. I am wary of second hand info. Looks like an M1A1 with a 30 to me. There is much info around on this subject Harlan, we just have to wait until it is forthcoming. Mike.

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When my Dad led his battalion of the 101st Airborne in Vietnam in July 1965, he made sure he had an M1A1 carbine. He preferred it since was what he used in the last part of WWII while serving in the PTO as a Lt. with the 541st PIR and 11th Airborne

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Originally Posted by painter777

Good Eye guys,
Bolt open and selector switch.
Can anyone make out the mag?
15 or 30rd?

Charlie-painter777

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I saw the selector and just figured he probably had a 30, but it's too dark in the shadow to tell.

I just thought the photo was outstanding - The crew chief coolly sitting in the open door of the old Sikorsky with his trusty M2 carbine at the ready. All business.

My boats had .50 cals. You could have a side arm. Most chose a .45 acp, only revolvers I saw were pilots we pulled out of the rivers. Early M-16's were having issues at the time. M-14's were bulky in confined spaces (boat deck) so some of us chose an M-1/2. They weren't all in M-2 configuration. One guy had an M-3 like Dave. Said easier to obtain ammo. I didn't like the heavy bolt slamming. We took in ROK troops using WW2 weapons. No shortage of extra weapons available if you wanted something. Dave says stolen, some might say appropriated. You could also pick up extra (Wounded or KIA) weapons, either side. Guys coming out of the bush could have trophy items *#@ not always weapons. Some stuff got smuggled home, some caught at check points. Long time ago now.

Every thing being relative..M1 Garands & Carbines average age in Viet Nam 1966 was only about 23. Most combat troops were about 19 yrs old. The troops and the weapons both did a good job!!:thup::thup:

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Originally Posted by Maniac

When my Dad led his battalion of the 101st Airborne in Vietnam in July 1965, he made sure he had an M1A1 carbine. He preferred it since was what he used in the last part of WWII while serving in the PTO as a Lt. with the 541st PIR and 11th Airborne

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Your father was a smart hero. If he is still alive tell him I said hello. Regards, Rick.

Bad weapon really, too heavy. You'll notice my ammo pouches are for the M14 which was back in the cab of the truck, selector switch H&R.
When I got there in the spring of 66 you would be shot by a German Mauser or a carbine, Infantry officers were trading AK 47s for better radios for their companies (101st out of Tuy Hoa), they were scarce. Some SKS, all the ammo was Chinese type56. By the time I left in 67, there were lots of AK47s and the NVA had moved into the highlands to stay. M16s were so scarce that only mobile Infantry units had them, by 1968 EVERYBODY had them even the ARVN. The Korean units we had in our area were equipped just like WW2 US. By the time Tet rolled around, I was home getting drunk every night. Amazed at how many people DIDN'T get drafted like I did.

Dave thanks for getting back.
My Uncle Hank was a 26 yr. old Dutch Citizen at the time. Drafted in '64. The entire 1st. I.D. went to Viet Nam by boat. When they got there they found that their clothes had got moldy in their bags. He said they piled them and burned them. they lived in fox holes until they had barracks put up. He said it rained every night and they were either wet from rain or sweat most of the time. They were in combat right away and at first they walked into alot of ambushes, until the learning curve of the 'Nam happened. He was sprayed with Agent Orange/Blue and later had a Daughter that was born with a deformed hand. When he was dischsarged he was told that because of his citizenship he could be drafted but did not have to serve in combat. He never complained and later took the citizenship classes and became an American Citizen. He is very proud of his service.....Frank

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Originally Posted by frankderrico

Dave thanks for getting back.
My Uncle Hank was a 26 yr. old Dutch Citizen at the time. Drafted in '64. The entire 1st. I.D. went to Viet Nam by boat. When they got there they found that their clothes had got moldy in their bags. He said they piled them and burned them. they lived in fox holes until they had barracks put up. He said it rained every night and they were either wet from rain or sweat most of the time. They were in combat right away and at first they walked into alot of ambushes, until the learning curve of the 'Nam happened. He was sprayed with Agent Orange/Blue and later had a Daughter that was born with a deformed hand. When he was dischsarged he was told that because of his citizenship he could be drafted but did not have to serve in combat. He never complained and later took the citizenship classes and became an American Citizen. He is very proud of his service.....Frank

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Frank,

I am dealing with agent orange issues. I'll PM you.

My personal experience would make a lot of people uncomfortable to hear. Our latrine was an eight foot X six foot wooden box with six holes cut in the top. When you sat down, your *** was touching someone else's. 500 men used it, there was no provision for washing. The shower was so putrid that the showerheads were removed because they would clog from all of the dead skin and soap residue as they pumped up the same white colored water, over and over again. People were getting sick with hepatitis and there were warning signs all over saying "Do not drink, do not brush your teeth". We sometimes went for days with no water. We lived in rat infested tents raised up on wooden floors, the rats were the size of housecats and finally died of bubonic plague in the spring of 66 along with 35K Viets. But that was our base camp, we had it good compared to the Infantry, they slept on the ground and ate out of cans for weeks at a time.

My initial location when I arrived was Camp Alpha in Saigon. It was made for 600 men, there were over 2000 in it when I arrived. You would stand in line for a half hour to use a falling apart paper cup and get a drink of hot clorox water out of a lister bag. It was like a German prison camp, packed full of soldiers. A few days before I got there, the VC dropped mortar rounds into that place, it was so packed there was no place to hide. Thank God I got out of there in two days and went North up to II Corps.

The whole experience was a filthy dirty camping trip with guns. And we had it made compared to the Infantry.

Dave,

Know the feeling brother, welcome home. Those two words mean a lot to most of us. I wasn't drafted, volunteered. Even with all the stigma people put on us for going, I am proud to have served my country.

Guys read about it and think, wow, get to shoot some cool weapons. And we did. But I wonder if most really understand. It's not romantic or glorious. You get to shoot these cool weapons because someone is shooting back at you. A lot of medical breakthroughs come from patching up the guts of young men. A large percentage of medals were awarded posthumously. You live in filth. Eat cold out of a can. Feet soaked and rotting. Wet and cold one season, then hot and humid the next. You give blood once a week because of shortages. You come home and have medical issues, nightmares. There isn't much good about being in a war zone. It's not like the movies. Some stuff is just better left unsaid.

Jim

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

My personal experience would make a lot of people uncomfortable to hear. Our latrine was an eight foot X six foot wooden box with six holes cut in the top. When you sat down, your *** was touching someone else's. 500 men used it, there was no provision for washing. The shower was so putrid that the showerheads were removed because they would clog from all of the dead skin and soap residue as they pumped up the same white colored water, over and over again. People were getting sick with hepatitis and there were warning signs all over saying "Do not drink, do not brush your teeth". We sometimes went for days with no water. We lived in rat infested tents raised up on wooden floors, the rats were the size of housecats and finally died of bubonic plague in the spring of 66 along with 35K Viets. But that was our base camp, we had it good compared to the Infantry, they slept on the ground and ate out of cans for weeks at a time.

My initial location when I arrived was Camp Alpha in Saigon. It was made for 600 men, there were over 2000 in it when I arrived. You would stand in line for a half hour to use a falling apart paper cup and get a drink of hot clorox water out of a lister bag. It was like a German prison camp, packed full of soldiers. A few days before I got there, the VC dropped mortar rounds into that place, it was so packed there was no place to hide. Thank God I got out of there in two days and went North up to II Corps.

The whole experience was a filthy dirty camping trip with guns. And we had it made compared to the Infantry.

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One thing about Vietnam........It killed a lot that survived.

'68-'69 Infantry

I honor and thank God for all the men who served in Vietnam. I was born in 1962 and lived in Pensacola, Florida growing up and saw a LOT of shot up aircraft coming in for repairs. We were very pro-miliary and I remember wearing a POW-MIA bracelet for years.

A person contacted me on Facebook who I've gotten to know and he is aware of my interest in historic firearms. He told me he was an advisor in Vietnam in the early 1960s and the team of South Vietnamese he was advising presented him with a "Chinese carbine" which, in his words, they took from a NVA soldier who "didn't need it anymore" and handed it to him, John. John sent me pictures today and it is a quite nice looking Mosin M44!

Can't wait to hear the whole story and details about his experience getting it.

Herc, you got that right.
A friend that served there gave me a call on New Years eve back in the '80's. It was unusual in that I had moved to Wis. in the late '70's and hadn't had much contact with him except for some weddings or funerals for a few years. He always seemed messed up by his expriance there. Drafted and didn't want to go.
We talked for awhile and then he said good by in a strange way. I found out later that he called all the old guys that night and then took his own life.

Very sad and tragic.....Frank

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Originally Posted by frankderrico

Herc, you got that right.
A friend that served there gave me a call on New Years eve back in the '80's. It was unusual in that I had moved to Wis. in the late '70's and hadn't had much contact with him except for some weddings or funerals for a few years. He always seemed messed up by his expriance there. Drafted and didn't want to go.
We talked for awhile and then he said good by in a strange way. I found out later that he called all the old guys that night and then took his own life.

Very sad and tragic.....Frank

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And people wonder why there are so many homeless vets.

I don't think Herc is just talking about suicide. Though we know there have been many who struggled like that. Guys have and are passing because of complications from wounds, agent orange related diseases are now at 14, plus guilt and mental issues (PTSD).

Each war has it's own concerns. How horrible was WW1 with mustard gas and chlorine. Nasty tissue eaters.

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Originally Posted by frankderrico

Herc, you got that right.
A friend that served there gave me a call on New Years eve back in the '80's. It was unusual in that I had moved to Wis. in the late '70's and hadn't had much contact with him except for some weddings or funerals for a few years. He always seemed messed up by his expriance there. Drafted and didn't want to go.
We talked for awhile and then he said good by in a strange way. I found out later that he called all the old guys that night and then took his own life.

Very sad and tragic.....Frank

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I'm sure others here have probably seen the same documentary about WWI and the shell shock cases where men went completely insane. There was one vet who had just passed away in the 1990's and he shook violently and uncontrollably his entire lifetime.

There are horrors in all wars that vets carry with them their entire lives. The big difference about Vietnam vets and vets from all other U.S. wars is how horrible they were treated after they returned home in the late 60's and 70's. I think it's one of the most despicable and tragic things I've known in my lifetime. Completely and utterly despicable that a whole part of the American society would behave like they did.

It's just unimaginable to me and I was just a kid at that time but remember it vividly. It's only been relatively just recently that Vietnam vets have been treated with the honor they deserved 40 years ago.

I enlisted in 1974. I had thought of doing it earlier, but my older brother, an O-3 who had served in Vietnam two tours, talked me out of it. When I was in MP school at Ft Gordon, they were looking for MP volunteers for Saigon, etc. I was married by then and had a kid already. My wife vetoed it this time. The closet I came was Oakland army Base guarding crap returning, including some long, silver, boxes of remains, non-viewable. Thanks to all you who served. I have my own nightmares from 20+ years of law enforcement, getting shot at, and of stuffing body bags from doing homicide and coroner investigations, and child rape investigations. The things people do to each other (including war) is beyond belief.

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Originally Posted by Harlan

There are horrors in all wars that vets carry with them their entire lives. The big difference about Vietnam vets and vets from all other U.S. wars is how horrible they were treated after they returned home in the late 60's and 70's. I think it's one of the most despicable and tragic things I've known in my lifetime. Completely and utterly despicable that a whole part of the American society would behave like they did.

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I was wounded bad enough to be sent back to the states, but not bad enough to be discharged. After a few weeks in a hospital in Japan and a week at home I had to report to Ft Meade MD and was assigned to riot control around DC. Talk about insult to injury….. that really sucked. But, the whole Vietnam experience made a lot of us feel worthless any way….. that never goes away.

Though it only began to become clear with the fall of the Soviet Union, VN started the demise of their empire. We tried to throw it away with the postwar defense cutbacks, but that movie actor guy saw the inherent weakness in totalitarianism and resumed the pressure. It's harder to see the effects of a holding action, but even if VN was only that, it was an essential element. Maybe it was as Churchill said about the Battle of Britain (paraphrasing): it's not the end, or even the beginning of the end; but it may have been the end of the beginning.

After VN, the USSR never had another major victory. Without our efforts there, it may have taken another generation or more. As most in western Europe don't appreciate what US WWII GIs did for them, many here fail to give credit to our VN vets.

Guess this is my way of saying thanks.

firstflabn, that was well said.....Frank

I was in Vietnam as an infantryman in the years shown above. Platoon Leader the first time and Company Commander the second. I disliked the M16 so sought to carry anything else that I could readily acquire ammo. Weapons included M1 Garand ( taken off of a VC killed in an ambush) and later a US stamped 12 guage shotgun with 00 buckshot.

Nearly all RF and PF forces were issued M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, BAR's and old air cooled .30 cal machine guns. I assume that these were sent by our Government to RVN as Military Aid. Regular RVN units had M16's and M60's.

When RF and PF units were overrun by the VC and NVA all of the weapons would be taken. When American units engaged VC and NVA units we would retake a lot of those old WW2 weapons as well as AKC's/ SKS/CKC Chicom stuff.

and came back alone. No units in/out for most people, You just showed up one day and one day you left. There was a tremendous sense of guilt when you got to go home and your buddies stayed. My big mindscrew was that I was drafted, selected for SF and OCS and refused both, I was sent to a signal battalion because I worked for the phone company when I was drafted. So not only did I get out of the Infantry, but some other poor guy took my slot at OCS and got himself shot up. It has bothered me for 40 years. It was the smart thing to do, but that doesn't help. I was in the 5th Inf Div when the OCS thing came up and sat next to a Captain who had just come back from the Ia Drang fight. He said "I'm going to give you the best piece of advice you will ever hear, Don't do this, if you do, you are going to be an Infantry platoon leader and you are going to get killed" I took his advice.

You guys are making me glad they didn't want me! I never understood why people gave the troops coming back from VN the cold shoulder-they went because we asked/told them to! And they did.

Anybody got any experience or knowledge of "advisor guns"? This was supposed to be a short-barreled M-2 carbine mounted in the M1A1 folding stock.
I am considering a M-2 for a NFA purchase and wondering if it might be a feasable/fun gun to re-create. Don't panic-I wont use a C&R gun!

What bothered me most the first time was the timing. Wednesday you were in combat, Thursday you caught a plane out of Da Nang. Arrive at Oakland airport in 12 or 13 hours to Hare Krishna and protesters yelling and throwing crap at you. First instinct is to reach for your K Bar which of course you are not wearing. As Dave said alone, no one to talk to about it. WW2 and Korea guys came home on ships. Large groups and maybe a month or more to get home. More time to get your mind right and calm down. No matter how bad we wanted to be here, in my opinion 24 hours, we just got back to the world too quick.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

and came back alone. No units in/out for most people, You just showed up one day and one day you left. There was a tremendous sense of guilt when you got to go home and your buddies stayed. My big mindscrew was that I was drafted, selected for SF and OCS and refused both, I was sent to a signal battalion because I worked for the phone company when I was drafted. So not only did I get out of the Infantry, but some other poor guy took my slot at OCS and got himself shot up. It has bothered me for 40 years. It was the smart thing to do, but that doesn't help. I was in the 5th Inf Div when the OCS thing came up and sat next to a Captain who had just come back from the Ia Drang fight. He said "I'm going to give you the best piece of advice you will ever hear, Don't do this, if you do, you are going to be an Infantry platoon leader and you are going to get killed" I took his advice.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

and came back alone. No units in/out for most people, You just showed up one day and one day you left. There was a tremendous sense of guilt when you got to go home and your buddies stayed. My big mindscrew was that I was drafted, selected for SF and OCS and refused both, I was sent to a signal battalion because I worked for the phone company when I was drafted. So not only did I get out of the Infantry, but some other poor guy took my slot at OCS and got himself shot up. It has bothered me for 40 years. It was the smart thing to do, but that doesn't help. I was in the 5th Inf Div when the OCS thing came up and sat next to a Captain who had just come back from the Ia Drang fight. He said "I'm going to give you the best piece of advice you will ever hear, Don't do this, if you do, you are going to be an Infantry platoon leader and you are going to get killed" I took his advice.

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Dave, you have NOTHING to feel bad about in any way. You were utilized where you did the most good, and there's no telling the lives that may have been saved because you knew your trade and performed it much better than if someone else with no skills was placed there.

As Jim also said, the return alone and just a few hours after being in all of what Vietnam was would have been one of the most surreal experiences anyone, anywhere could have experienced. Having to see the ignorant sheep protesters just added to the terrible experience. Protesters are some of the most ignorant of any groups of people I've ever seen. They are driven by the media. When this latest thing where protesters have been sleeping in tents to protest wall street, it showed bigger than ever. I've watched interviews of the current protesters and they are very telling - they are there as something to do to make themselves feel like they are a part of something. Most of them don't have jobs. Just ignorant sheep, and I didn't here one of them make a valid point as to why they were there. They just came along to feel like they were part of something. The protesters in the late 60's were no different - just a bunch of bums who had nothing better to do than to try to belong to a group. Most were there because they didn't have jobs, and many were there because they were draft dodging cowards who ran from service and wanted to try to feel better by acting like they were part of a group of people who were opposed to the war.