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For a M1913 bayonet, is it ok to remove surface rust from the blade or is that considered taboo? The wood handles of this bayonet are in great shape and so is the scabbard, but there is significant rust on the surface of the blade. Can I remove it, or should I leave it? I was thinking about using a steel brush spinning wheel to do the job.
On a M1913 bayonet for the P14 and M1917 rifles, is it ok to remove surface rust from the blade or is that considered taboo? The wood handles of this bayonet are in great shape and so is the scabbard, but there is significant rust on the surface of the blade. Can I remove it, or should I leave it? I was thinking about using a wire brush spinning wheel to do the job
There was an absolutely MAGIC way of removing just the rust by electrolysis described on the restorers forum. Whatever method you use, by the very nature of metallurgy, the make-up of (most) steels and the forulation of rust, you WILL be left with pitting.
But, please, please, please, avoid the wire brush like the plague................ PLEASE
steel wool, oil and patients. A wire wheel will ruin any value
Oh good thanks very much for that alternative. I didn't want to have to use the wire brush, but it was the only way I knew. Can you tell me how to or who can do the electrolysis?
Thanks for this alternative. I didn't want to use the wire brush but it was the only way I knew, now I won't have to.
Electrolysis is really more for heavily rusted items such as battlefield relics. The method I have always used for cleaning bayonets or gun components is scrubbing the metal with some fine wire wool well lubricated with gun oil or similar. This will take off surface rust without damaging the metal or any remaining bluing.
Exactly what do you mean by "significant rust on the surface of the blade"? One man's "significant rust" is another's light, powdery rust that can be removed by wiping on a heavy coat of light oil and leaving for a couple of days and then wiping with a rough rag removing both the oil and the offending rust. Try that first and then move on to careful use of the 0000 steel wool and oil. As others have already sad, never use a wire wheel.
Also, please remember that it is an antique and you should try to match the condition of the rest of the bayonet and it's scabbard. It should not look "new".
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatmarket
AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!
or should that be
YYYYEEEEUUUUCHCHHHHH
Now read this: the original unexpurgated Word text, full of genuine hand-made typos. (Question for moderators: how do I make a link to a previous contribution?)
Refurbishing an Argentine RB - Part 3
The second shopping list
A) An ultrasonic cleaner - no need to spend hundreds of dollars - I bought a small one for cleaning glasses at a local stores for less than 30 euros. You will find it very helpful indeed for removing rust and muck from the action components.
B) An electrolytic cleaning bath. No need to spend a lot of money here either.
The components are
1) a 6-12v DC power supply (battery charger) which MUST have an adjustable current limit that covers roughly 100-500 mA.
2) A pack of washing soda. Not caustic soda.
3) A stainless steel container (I picked up various sizes of pans from the local recycling center, a.k.a. rubbish dump) to be used as the "bath tub".
4) Frame to sit in the bath, on which to placce the piece being cleaned without it touching the metal of the pan.
5) Plain iron wire (NOT galvanized) for the electrical connection to the piece being cleaned. From garden suppliers.
(You must never have any other metal other than iron/steel in contact with the electrolyte)
6) Insulating sleeves,bits of plastic sheet - whatever it takes to stop the wire to the workpiece shorting to the pan.
And, for the bore:
C) Two cal.45 soft lead round bullets.
D) Two fully-sized sample cartridge cases for the .43 Spanish Mauser cartridge.
E) Two sample bullets, preferably cast in soft lead, suitable for the .43 Spanish.
Electrolytic cleaning
The electrolytic cleaning bath is set up as follows:
The stainless steel pan (ex-rubbish dump - now known as recycling center!) doubles as the bath container and the ANODE of the electrolytic bath.
BTW. If I write something in CAPITALS, that means, for heaven's sakes don't do anything different or listen to someone shooting the breeze in the bar, unless he can show you museum-class restorations that he has done himself. I bow to superior knowledge and ability, but not to Bubba, who has neither.
The POSITIVE lead of the power supply must be connected to the stainless steel pan that is being used as the ANODE.
A piece of IRON or STEEL wire is attached to the piece to be cleaned (the workpiece).
The workpiece is placed in the bath, on some kind of insulating grid. to stop it touching the bottom and shorting out the bath. For small pieces, the plastic frames used in 22 bullet boxes are ideal.
Before making the next connection, set the power supply / battery charger output to about 6V (if it is adjustable). Turn the current knob down to zero, short the terminals, and adjust the current limit to about 100 mA. This is enough to test that the bath works, and to clean small pieces, such as screws. And you now have a safe setting before you take the next step, which is...
Attach the NEGATIVE lead from the power supply to the workpiece, which functions as the CATHODE in the bath. You will need to use insulating sleeving or sheeting to make sure that the negative lead and/or iron wire do not contact the bath and thus short-circuit the supply.
You can now make up the electrolyte. The solution must be alkaline. If you are using washing soda (sodium carbonate) as I suggested, that is quite akaline enough for the bath, without being dangerous. If you get any on your skin, just wash it off immediately. Dissolve about a tablespoonful in a pint of warm water, and use that to fill the bath. Make up as much as you need in that sort of ratio to fill th bath so that it covers the workpiece
Here is a useful tip: basically (i.e. not guaranteed!), iron and steel will not be corroded by dry alkaline material. What causes comon salt to rust steel so savagely is the hygroscopic action of the salt in absorbing moisture from the air, which then rusts the iron. Acids, however, are death to iron.
So the workpiece is only safe in the electrolytic bath as long as the current is flowing to maintain the electrolytic action. If you turn off the current you must remove the workpiece immediately, dry it off, and oil it, as the electrolytic action has produced a nice new surface that will rust extremely fast (overnight, as I discovered the hard way).
You can now get started on cleaning any steel or iron parts that will fit into your bath, with two exceptions.
1) Do not attempt to electrolytically clean springs or hammers. When the bath is running, hydrogen gas bubbles will be produced at the cathode. There is a chemical action known as "hydrogen embrittlement" that can weaken metal by deepening the micro-cracks that exist on the surface, and are encouraged by stress and strain (i.e. bending a spring, hammer blow).
2) Do not bother with the barrel. A bath long enough to take it will be expensive in stainless steel. You can use plastic guttering to make a bath, and then use stainless steel rods placed carefully in the bath as anodes, but the resulting surface will have to be removed anyway to make a good-looking barrel.
The current setting is a matter of taste. Although I have read of others claiming to have (at least partially) reduced the rust right back to metallic iron by using a low current over a long time, I doubt that the result has any lasting value for rifle parts. The electrolytic bath will reduce the red rust to black iron oxide (actually a mishmash, but mainly the magnetic form - magnetite - the black stuff used for tape recording).
This is by no means a hard. stable layer - at least not if you want to get the job done in my lifetime. And this rifle has no bluing worth preserving, so it is going to be simpler to get it all off and reblue anything that needs or deserves it.
If the bath is functioning, you will soon (10 sec.) see bubbles rising, and the current should be on the limit. If not, gradually in crease the voltage until the currentlimit is activated. You can now increase the speed of electrolytic cleaning by turning up the current. At high levels the workpiece will seem to fizz, and the rust will be blasted off by the gas bubble to form a brown sludge. Since the fizzing prduces hydrogen gas, it is not a good idea to use a high rate in a closed room, and most certainly inadvisable to have naked flames anywhere near the bath. So open windows are advisable, and take it easy.
You will have to do a bit of experimentation to see what produces satisfactory results. For myself, I am rather impatient, and after about 10-20 minutes I remove the workpiece, swish it around in a bucket of water, and put it into the little ultrasonic cleaner (I have a second one for actually cleaning my glassses!).
Turn on the ultrasonic cleaner, and within seconds you will see more sludge forming as the ultrasonic vibrations shake off the loosened material. This step also indicates that the magnetite layer is mechanically not very stable, as if you now put the workpiece back into the electrolytic bath and give it another "fizz", you will finfd after a couple of cycles that you can get some pieces pretty well blank.
It appears that commercial ultrasonic cleaning fluid includes tensides and alkaline components (like the "conditioner" used for blackening. But you can get quite a satisfactory result by using the sme weakly akaline solution that you use for the bath.
And just to demonstrate that this is not just theory, but really works, "Here" as the television cooks say "is one I prepared earlier".
It is the barrel plug and tang from an Anschütz. No, not the modern 22 you all know, but a muzzle-loading percussion target rifle made by Veit Anschütz in Mehlis, Germany, about 1850 (the museum in Zella-Mehlis may be able to give me a more precise dating). When I got it, it looked worse than the RB. I was risking my money on something that was not even an acceptable wall-hanger. No drill that I know off coud get through that S-shaped ignition hole, which was solid with hard corrosion. But after maybe 10 cycles, you can see what emerged - gold inlay bands and scrollwork that a would have bean destroyed by abrasive cleaning.
It takes time. But I think it is worth it.
That was quite enough for today. We will attack the barrel in Part 4.
End of Part 3
:wave:
Patrick
(Look up the forum posting if you want the photos.)
Thanks Patrick for that very informative explaination. This is going to be a lot of help to me.
FWIW - brass wool is better than steel wool
Quote:
Originally Posted by A square 10
Yes, if you can get it. I use the brass brushes you can buy for brushing suede leather.
:wave:
Patrick
Either brass wool or steel wool will work, just remember to keep both studiously clean. As they get full of rust that has been removed either rotate to a new, clean surface of the wool or replace. The rust powder/flakes are very abrasive and will mark the surface being cleaned.
Steel wool comes in finer grades than brass/bronze wool, and no brass wipe off on the metal. 4/0 steel wool and oil will gently remove the rust without harming the original finish with any care at all. You can remove the finish by aggressively using most anything.
Thanks everyone. I'll carefully try both methods to see which are better and when I'm finished, I'll post pics of the result.
Well said. :thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers
---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatMarket
The best of luck, remember - "Less is more".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers
Which is why I seriousy recommend first using the electrolytic meethod. Any brush will brush everything, so there isl always likely to be some microscopic abrasion which - as has been pointed out - will become noticeable if you overdo it . But electrolysis only affects the rust, and preceding + following ultrasonic cleaning shakes off the loose flakes and sludge. Please give it a try.
:wave:
Patrick
I certainly will give this a try too. It seems I have everything I need already except the soda. Will baking soda work?Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatMarket
Yes, just stir in about a tablespoonful per pint of water.
:wave:
Patrick
Patrick, your chemistry formulation is the work of a genius................................
Yeah, it takes years of practice to get as sloppy as that!
Hi, Patrick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
Just go to the thread where the post you're referring to is.
Then at the top of the page where the URL is, move your mouse up to anywhere in the long string and 'Left Click' in it anywhere.
After you left click, the whole string will darken. Then 'Right Click' and a box will drop down.
'Left Click' on the word COPY.
Then go back to the the thread where you want to make the link, and in the dialogue box, 'Right Click' and a drop down box will appear -
'Left Click' on the word 'Paste' -
This will make a link in the thread so people can just click on it and be taken to the original thread you're referring to, so you don't have to re-post the whole thing. Showing links to the original thread also often helps because it captures posts in the original thread's page that might help to explain the information with-in the original context.
The "left Clicking' and 'Right Clicking' is easier to do than it sounds, and only takes seconds in actual practice.
I hope thiis is what you meant and helps,
~ Harlan
Thanks Harlan, that is just what I wanted. Let's see if it works for me!
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....ight=Argentine
It does!
:wave:
Patrick
---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------
OK Meatmarket, I think the Rolling Block thread provides very good examples of "before & after" photos of a rifle that started off looking like scrap and ended as a respectable shooter.
An unthinking person might have just used wire wool on everything. Bubba would have used a wire brush in an electric drill. Or sand-blasted the lot. But the series on the Argentine Rolling Block demonstrates that such mechanical brutality is not necessary. Care and time produce better results. QED, thanks to Joel. It is just a pity that we never heard from Joel again.
:wave:
Patrick
Thanks Patrick, I'll look over that article. On another note, I just posted another thread about the same bayonet here: 1913 bayonet scabbard. Info please? asking about the unique scabbard that it came with. Any thoughts?
Great news. There will be no restoration needed on the bayonet. The pictures on the auction listing only made it look rusty. I just got it in the mail today and it's in great condition, just a bit of pitting on the tip. The "rust" was just discoloring in the metal. The tang is solid, the wood is sturdy and well preserved, and there's an edge that's been put on a long time ago, possibly (hopefully) while it was in service during the Great War. The edge has the same aged color as the rest of the blade.
What a relief! You have a perfectly OK Pattern 13 bayonet, made for the P14, which became paired at a later date* with a P13 scabbard that was altered for use with the M1917 rifle. Or to be more correct, for US use - the rifle doesn't care what the scabbard is!
*Not in the factory, otherwise it would have been marked US and the British acceptance marks would have been lined out.
:wave:
Patrick
DWM and Erfurt made hundreds of thousands of P.08's during WWI, and guess what was used to remove the rust of the rust bluing process? Not electrolytic, but steel wool. The electrolytic process can remove the rust down to the bright metal in the rust spots, and you want the patina of the rust left in the pits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
This one was finished some 110 years ago by being scrubbed with steel wool, and it doesn't look too shabby and shows no microscopic abrasion.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../14klc94-1.jpg