Need some help with an S'G' front band

I've got an S'G' that I've had for more than a year and hadn't fired yet. The sun was out here yesterday, so I grabbed some ammo and headed up into the hills to try it out. Other than needing a couple of clicks of windage on the rear sight, I thought I was doing really well. Then about half way through the first mag, I lost the sight picture - found the handguard laying loose on top of the rifle and blocking my view of the front sight. I've heard of this happening before, but I've never had it happen myself. I bought the SA M2 stock from What-a-Country and probably just didn't have the band screw tight enough - worried about deforming the wood, I guess. The band had moved forward, and the lug on the band spring hadn't caught it as it went past. After I took a look, I remembered how the band hadn't seemed to fit just right when I had put it together. Take a look at first two pictures and see if you think this looks normal?? To get it going again, I slid the band back until it just "latched" and then tightened it with a dime about a turn tighter than I'd had it. Which position do you think it's best to leave it in, and I wonder if there are any differences in the location of the tabs between band springs? It almost looks like the hole in the stock may be too far forward or something. I only had 10 rounds of reloads left to fill the second mag, so decided to try the 25yd. carbine target that I had printed and taken along. I got my first 7 consecutive rounds in the black, and then shot the rest at a pie plate. Not that good of a group, but I was trying to keep my balance while sitting in a wobbly lawn chair and resting my elbow on my knee. There was a little bit of snow and ice on the ground and the area was in the shade with temps somewhere in the high 20's. - also looking through the top part of my" varilux" glasses and had Harbor Freight "cheapo" safety glasses over top of those. Too many excuses without even mentioning being cold and old! :D The gun was a CMP "less wood" that was auctioned about 3 years ago and checks out fine for headspace, muzzle wear, and also seems to shoot good! - Bob

PS - I had never had this happen before, but the empty cases instantly freeze to the ground when it's cold and icy out. Soldiers probably wouldn't have noticed this, but maybe reenactors would.:) Frank, I took the Ford and had to use 4wd.

Kuhnhausen shows 1.25 -.05" from spindle centerline to break point and 1.694 +.010" from centerline of spindle to face of catch. Unless your hole is badly elongated or the stock is out of spec, the problem is with a band spring that's too long on that leg - maybe by 1/16" or better.

Looks like the hole is oblong. Stick a matchstick in the front of the hole and replace the spring and see if that helps, if so glue a matchstick in there.

" sitting in a wobbly lawn chair and resting my elbow on my knee." And you wonder about your grouping? That had to be a sight.

Hey Bob, I wonder how many soldiers had..............:D

The "point" on the rear end of the bandspring is the approximate centerline of the spindle; when installed it always makes the hole look eliptical.

To me, the hole does look a little oblong like Dave said. I had one that was worn and it did the same thing.

Use a drill bit backward or something similar and push the band spring out from the other side of the stock. Then you can tell if the hole is really oblong or not.

If so, you can fill in the front part to set the spring back some. You might also replace the spring while you're at it. Sometimes the front of the spring wears a little.

Thanks to all of you guys for the suggestions. I have Kuhnhausen's book, but had forgotten those specs were in there. I actually had the band spring out of the stock when I first got it, to polish out some scratches - the hole wasn't messed up, unless it's in the wrong place. I've got a spare new band spring and some dial calipers, so will do some measuring tomorrow and let you guys know what I find. Harlan: What did I do wrong on the pictures so they don't work the same as they usually do when viewing? I can only see one at a time - and then have to close that one before I can open the next. I thought I sized them down the same as in the past, but maybe I got them too large?? Also, for you S'G' guys: What's the deal on the staking behind my front sight key? It's not there on my other two S'G's. Maybe the Underwood barrel is not the original? - Bob

Hey Bob, nice shooting.
Kicked the Ford in 4 wheel drive to get out and shoot, I'm lovin it!
Have a great weekend and Merry Christmas.....Frank

Frank, I've had the carbine apart all day measuring everything and trying to figure what the problem is. I figured out a better way to "peen" my loose trigger housing than on my other guns, so just finished that and decided to check the forum for a minute. I saw your S'G' stock project on the other thread. I hadn't even realized the M2 cut was so much more than just the small slot for the selector that's visible with the gun assembled. I know it will come out looking right when you are done! The cause of my band location problem turned out to be one of the ideas suggested in the above posts. I took some pictures, and will post them tomorrow. Merry Christmas to you and the whole Carbine Forum Crew! - Bob

Here's what I found checking out the band spring and the SA stock: The new band spring and the old one were nearly identical in all critical dimensions, except the lug of the old one looked slightly rounded. I decided to go with the new one. The hole didn't look that bad, but wasn't as tight as one in an old Robert Irwin stock. I thought the hole must be at an angle, so inserted an 1/8" welding rod - could immediately see the problem. The pictures taken on the counter top and with the square, show the difference. The one with the straight hole is the Robert Irwin stock. I measured the distance from the welding rod to the place where the band goes and found the hole about .05" off - close to 1/16" forward of where it should be. I decided there wasn't an easy fix, so put a piece of a flat wooden toothpick at the front edge of the hole before installing the new band spring. It's not fixed right, but a little better than it was. The last picture is for Jim - it's my "shootin' chair" taken last January when there wasn't any ice for it to slide around on! - Bob

Bob, thanks for the update. Your pics show the differance in the holes. Glad you got it fixed. Now how about the carbine on the table in your last pic?.....Frank

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Originally Posted by frankderrico

Bob, thanks for the update. Your pics show the differance in the holes. Glad you got it fixed. Now how about the carbine on the table in your last pic?.....Frank

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Somehow that one missed going through the arsenal rebuild. It's a little rough with the front sight wings filed off and the stock is that one I posted about ealier that had a piece added onto the butt. It's got all the right parts - I probably should have had you or Charlie do the stock for me. - Bob

Hey Bob - sometimes just replacing the band spring with a new one that has a nice square 'lug' is enough to solve the problem. (Let us know)

~ Harlan

Bob,

I love that chair, maybe skids on the bottom will help add some excitement on those icy mornings.
But you are showing our age with those calipers. I still occasionally race my slot cars and got ribbed by the younger guys for using dial calipers to check tire height. So I caved in and bought digital calipers.

I have used the wooden match before too. After someone buggered up the hole. A guy took all the metal off his stock then tried to swell up the nicks and dents. Of course this semi closed the spring hole. So he drilled it out, (meaning too large) :bash: that was the reason for the inserted wooden match stick.

Merry Christmas :cheers:

Jim

Excellent photos; not so great on the math. Your reported .050" offset is not from the centerline; you have doubled the actual offset.

With no convenient reference point and no drawings, we can't know whether the hole and/or step down in the stock nose are mislocated (but if they couldn't manage to drill a hole perpendicular to the stock centerline, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence). Add the .025" skew in the hole location to the +.010" tolerance on the spring length and I'd guess by the eyeball method that you're approaching what shows as a gap between rear edge of band and stock step down. Distance from 'D' cutout in the barrel band to rear edge of band figures in too. Proper angle on the spring really matters if the wood has shrunk a bit from sanding.

I had a similiar situation on a OI Hi-wood stock set. Just for the heck of it, After removing the band spring and bending the right outer end outward. Found it seated and gripped much better. HG and band stayed in place and stayed tight. Easy enough to try.
Also had another stock that came with no spring, it looked as though the band spring had been knocked out with too big a diameter punch. Spring never would seat tightly. I packed the right side hole with JB weld, pushed in with a cut down Q-tip and while still soft pushed a #6 (or #8, which ever is closest to the band springs inserted part) finish nail with some cellophane wrapped on the nail. I had looped twine to each exposed end of the nail pulling it back towards the receiver and tying it. When Epoxy had dried I tapped out the nail and put in the band spring. Worked very well, without any JB to be see when spring was in position.
I know........... sounds a little whacked, but both methods worked for me.

Just passing along some Country Boy methods that worked for me.

FWIW,
Charlie-painter777

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Originally Posted by firstflabn

Excellent photos; not so great on the math. Your reported .050" offset is not from the centerline; you have doubled the actual offset.

With no convenient reference point and no drawings, we can't know whether the hole and/or step down in the stock nose are mislocated (but if they couldn't manage to drill a hole perpendicular to the stock centerline, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence). Add the .025" skew in the hole location to the +.010" tolerance on the spring length and I'd guess by the eyeball method that you're approaching what shows as a gap between rear edge of band and stock step down. Distance from 'D' cutout in the barrel band to rear edge of band figures in too. Proper angle on the spring really matters if the wood has shrunk a bit from sanding.

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The hole on the SA stock is about .05" closer to the "step down" on the right side than it is on the left. The difference between the two sides is the same whether you use the center line or the edge of the hole (welding rod) - hope this helps on the math question. Kuhnhausen's book does give the dimension for where the "step down" should be. The "step down" and the handguard dimensions all checked out. I didn't measure the cutout in the band though. The location of the hole on the left side is about where it ought to be according to comparisons I made with my other stocks. It's too bad Kuhnhausen's book doesn't show the actual dimension for hole location. - Bob

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

I love that chair, maybe skids on the bottom will help add some excitement on those icy mornings.
But you are showing our age with those calipers. I still occasionally race my slot cars and got ribbed by the younger guys for using dial calipers to check tire height. So I caved in and bought digital calipers.

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I broke down and bought the dial caliper when I couldn't read my vernier anymore without getting a headache. I do have a digital, but since I can't actually see what makes it work, I don't trust it unless I check back and forth between the two! Also, it's too easy to leave it on and run the battery dead! - Bob

I think you're on the right track, Bob, and the excellent photos helped me follow your analysis. What I meant on the skew was not related to measuring from edge of hole or centerline, but skew from normal to the stock long axis. If we were both marching band members and told to line up on the 50 yardline, but you lined up on the north 49 and I lined up on the south 49, we would be off by a total of two yards, but each of us would only be one yard from where we were supposed to be. Since any mislocation would only matter on the stock's right side, I used offset from hole location if hole was drilled normal to stock long axis (rather than total skew).

Ignoring my training by adding dimensions on a drawing (and also ignoring the stated tolerances), the stepdown should be 1.3565" from back edge of hole. You measured 1.323" on the right side. That's 0.033" too short and looks like it could account for the great majority of the gap between band edge and stepdown. Left side is .018" from ideal (too long). A bit of tolerance stacking could account for the remainder, though the band doesn't have to fit tight up against the stepdown (as long as the band is tight and assuming the hole in the band is properly located); it can stand a small amount of rotation.

The real lesson is how difficult it was to design these things even using such a simple, static element as this as an example. Like the Three Bears' porridge - not too hot; not too cold; just right. Close tolerances required for function; loose tolerances required for constructability.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I think the left side of my band spring hole is on the 50th yardline and the right side is on the 48th! I've drilled some "skewed" holes myself by not having my work laying flat on the drill press - perfectly straight holes that started out in the right place, just didn't come out the other side where I had planned! :lol: - Bob

Thanks to your efforts I now have a better understanding of the system, Bob. Wonder if it was that the drill wasn't set on 0 deg or if the stock wasn't shimmed up under the nose to keep its longitudinal centerline parallel to the bed? I shouldn't ignore the possible contributing role of a rounded off catch. Looking at Kuhnhausen, I see the 90 deg (-) callout on side of the catch to the short leg of the spring. If it's rounded off, it is also a tad shorter and, thus, has less bearing on the edge of the slot in the band (for a Type 2 or 3; from the outside of the band for a type 1).

I have an original Saginaw that the band occasionally pops off like yours. I didn't want to alter it or swap springs, obviously. The hole was tight, so I installed the spindle without pushing it all the way down. I rarely shoot it, but that seemed to cure it. Now I'm going to have to take another look at it to try to puzzle out which element (or combination) caused the problem. You didn't know it, but you were helping diagnose mine along with yours!

Can't do much about wood shrinkage or oversanding without using a shim, but absent those factors, I think this exercise may have produced a new diagnostic procedure: 1) check hole to assure it's not wallowed out - spindle should fit tight; 2) check location of hole on right side relative to stock stepdown (dimensions above); 3) assure catch is sharp on face and about .053" high; 4) and one more - where flat leg breaks, assure angle is about 12 deg and the angle of flat leg to spindle is about 83 deg (that's what makes it spring).

I just dug out a new spring that I got in a parts grouping. Had always suspected it was non-USGI. All measurements are fine except the angles - 87 deg + (should be 83) and 7 deg (should be 12). That's awful. It's in the trash. Glad there were some really nice small parts in that group otherwise.

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Originally Posted by firstflabn

The hole was tight, so I installed the spindle without pushing it all the way down.

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I had only messed with a couple of these until recently. In the past, I pretty much pushed them all the way in. I noticed that the Kuhnhausen book says to go until flush with the contour of the stock or slightly farther, so on this last one I didn't go all the way in with it. On that spring that was the wrong angle - you can bend those if you are careful, and make them usable. I'm attaching a picture to show how far off the angle was on my "new" one when I got it several months ago. Actually, the springs in this picture are the exact same ones that are compared in the pictures shown on page 1 of this thread. - Bob

Attachment 29328

Just don't try to bend them too much Bob -
(Ask me how I know) :lol:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Spring1-1.jpg

It's not a chicken wing, Harlan (no meat anyway).

Yep, "just a little bit more ought to do it!" :banghead: You've got my permission to trash that one. ;) - Bob

You are supposed to support both sides of the bend. Looks like that one was held by one end and bent, snapping at the weak point. I've done that before I learned. :nono: Good thing it is a cheap part.

It's still not right - the band ought to be back to the shoulder at the same time the head of the spring snaps into the latch hole.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...land08b1-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

It's still not right - the band ought to be back to the shoulder at the same time the head of the spring snaps into the latch hole.

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That's assuming all parts are in spec. They aren't or there would have been no problem to discuss. You're stating the obvious. Ordnance would have discarded the stock and the band spring and perhaps the handguard. We don't have that luxury.

What's obvious to me is that practically any front end can be re-fitted to tighten it up and allow the carbine to be fired. The main things that can be changed are the band retaining spring and it's mounting hole in the stock. If its wallowed out it can be shimmed back, or completly drilled out, a dowel glued in and re-drilled for the spring. You can find a new retaining spring that hasn't been bent or altered and that will help some, but by whatever means the band must be held to the shoulder in the stock so the hand guard retaining lip has a chance to actually retain the hand guard when firing. The hand guard also has to be matched to the stock and in good condition, so the band lip covers the front tenon. The latch hole in the band may be worn which would necessitate a band replacement. Technically, even this could be fixed but would require refinishing. A worn tenon of the hand guard can be built up and reshaped. Yes, the stock would have been discarded in 1949, but today we would fix it.

For the designers close contact between the back edge of the band and the stepdown was not absolutely necessary. Why? At the risk of again stating the obvious - it would have been on the drawings and in TM9-1276. Funny, I can't seem to find it in the TM. Actually the TM's concern seems to be the opposite, and it devotes quite a bit of space to curing the problem when the band cutout can't reach the catch. A slight bit of space from the band not being in close contact would be taken up by tightening the band screw. A complimentary element to allow fabrication tolerances to be a bit wider in the interest of productivity (and interchangeability).

This particular stock may be a bit of an anomaly. I doubt if they built a complex jig to hold the stock in position for drilling the hole; maybe used a stop on the table. They knew they had to use a lot of unskilled labor and this would have been a good job for a newbie. A minor distraction or a sneeze could have allowed the stock nose to tilt up just short of the stop, resulting in a hole drilled a hundredth or two too far forward.

I will now be on the lookout for other stocks pegged as you describe (to allow redrilling of a mislocated hole) - and then we can wonder if it was done in arsenal, field, or garage.

I've considered using a dowel on mine. I've decided to leave it as is, because it did work OK after only tightening the band. My main concern about using a dowel would be in hiding the repair. In my case, I think the best way would be to use a dowel very close in diameter to the size of the band spring slot. I would make a stop and drill from the right side, stopping short of coming out at the left. I'd glue in the dowel and mark the location on the right side, maybe drilling in for a short distance. Then I would try finishing by drilling from the left and hoping that the holes coincide. It would be pretty easy to stain the right end of the dowel and get a good match to hide the repair. Remember this stock is a post war SA replacement, and they may not have had the quality control standards of the WWII makers. - Bob