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I saw this gun two years ago and tried to buy it.
The seller was not ready....last week I got a call from him...he was now ready.
The deal is done and I have the gun.
You never know when things will happen…..I was not expecting this!
These guns don't come around very often where I live…..so I jumped on it.
I thought that I would share these photos with they that might be interested.
David
I think the buttplate has been replaced, and if you are very careful you can fit it to look way closer. Otherwise, a very nice looking gun.
scosgt,
Do you think this butt plate has been replaced?
Bruce Canfield doesn't.
David
I can't see the logo so I don't know if it is a Winchester plate of the proper vintage, but from the side it looks quite properly fitted. So the answer is, it looks right in the supplied photo, but not enough info is provided to say for sure.
The other one clearly overhangs the top too much. Winchester buttplates were hand fitted before the stock was finished, and originals should fit perfectly. But they were commonly broken in the military service when soldiers tried to do "manual of arms" with them. You really can't slam a rubber/plastic butt plate on the cement floor.
scosgt.
Black Winchester marked butt plate on this 43 dated Model 97 Trench Gun. Sn. 995352E
David
I sent photos to Bruce Canfield before I bought this gun.
Based on his comments.....I bought it.
This one is proper but not original. Needs fitting.
A comment from Bruce Canfield regarding the butt plate.
He has a number of my photos that I sent him regarding this M97.
(I bought an early M1A1 carbine some years ago based on his comments following his review of my photos.)
"It is of the correct pattern. If it fits well and shows no sign of sanding or removing plastic from the edges, it is probably original".
What a helpful guy he is.
David
But it does not fit well!
scosgt,
I would really like to know what a good fitting butt plate looks like.
David
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01458-1.jpg
In your post dated 12-23-2011 12:26 AM The picture you show appears to show the buttplate overhanging the top and bottom of the stock.
scosgt,
It might be an idea to post good photos of an 'all correct' example of a Winchester Model 97 Trench Gun in the gallery with a commentary on the different aspects of the gun to look out for.
If it has been done....I could not find it.
Just a suggestion.
David
Something that I have since learned.
I think some later trench guns were fitted with riot gun barrels.
The front bead sights that were filed down or filled in were probably riot gun barrels which would include the under side riot gun barrel notches.
I suspect that these features are found on some later trench guns.
This is not clearly explained in the books.
David
Actually, most of the later trenchguns have a front sight hole that is filled with a german silver plug. That plug was turned down on a lathe, and you can see the lathe marks on a real one. However, I have NEVER seen one that has the pinch marks. Does yours have the bomb on the barrel? It might be a re-fit, based on what the plug looks like. It should literally look like part of the barrel, because it is turned on a lathe and the marks should extend on both sides of the plug right onto the barrel.
Again, the pinch marks tend to indicate a made up gun. The filled bead does not.
Photos of the bomb on the barrel.
Thanks for your explanation.
David
That looks totally legit. Probably a riot barrel that was converted. Whether it was done by Winchester I can't say, the pinch marks would bother me, the filled front sight hole is fine.
Thanks Bruce.
The whole point of the last few posts was basically to address those late M97 trench guns
that were fitted with riot barrels that are still legit trench guns.
David
A different subject.
The gun shown below is a W.B accepted gun that sold at RIA in 2011 for $8,624 in Sept 2011.....big bucks.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mber2011-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Sept2011-1.jpg
The description is below.
Winchester Model 1897 Trench Gun manufactured in 1942. This take-down M1897 Trench Gun has the scarce and very desirable early WWII production features that include: (1) WWI style, six-hole hand guard/bayonet mount, (2) early pattern markings with "U.S." only on the left side of the receiver and (3) early Ordnance final inspection mark consisting of "W.B." in a rectangle above the small Ordnance Escutcheon on the left side of the stock. A small Ordnance 'Shell and Flame' inspection mark is stamped on the top of the barrel just ahead of the receiver. The shotgun has the Winchester commercial blue finish on the hand guard, barrel, magazine and receiver. The walnut stock and forearm have a dull varnish finish. The stock is fitted with a black, checkered, hard rubber, buttplate embossed with the round Winchester trademark and a sling swivel. The hand guard is fitted with the correct wire sling swivel above the bayonet lug. The underside of the barrel is stamped with the "42" (1942) production date. The left side of the barrel is stamped with the two-line legend: "MODEL-97-WINCHESTER-12 GA./-TRADE MARK-". "23/4 CHAMB./CYL." is stamped on the left side of the barrel between the Winchester legend and the receiver. The oval "WP" monogram/proof mark is stamped on the top of the barrel and the receiver. The serial number: "937039" is stamped on the underside of the barrel and "E/937039" is stamped on the underside of the receiver. The hand guard/bayonet lug is, correctly, not marked. Most WWII production Winchester M1897 Trench Guns were fitted with the later production, four-hole, hand guard/bayonet lug. These Trench Guns had the later style markings which consisted of "US" and the Ordnance "Shell and Flame' insignia on the left side of the receiver and "G.H.D" final inspection above the larger Ordnance Escutcheon on the left side of the stock. Winchester Model 1897 Trench Guns, like this one, with the early hand guard and markings are scarce and very desirable.Condition:Excellent. The Trench Gun retains 95% of the original blue finish. Wear is limited to light scratches and storage marks on the sides of the receiver and some minor cycling marks on the magazine tube. The stock is highly figured walnut and is in excellent condition. The Ordnance inspection marks are crisp. Wear is limited to a minor scratch on the left side of the pistol grip. The forearm is in excellent condition. Winchester Model 1897 Trench Guns saw extensive use in the Pacific Theater during WWII and remained in service until well after the Vietnam Conflict. As a result, examples of M1897 Trench Guns in original condition are scarce; early production M1897 Trench Guns like this example are very difficult to find with any amount of original finish.
The description is right on. That is amazing money. Of course, you need to examine the gun or have good closeup pictures to determine if there is anything funky about it. At that price level, it would pay to make a good fake.
The picture looks really good but is not detailed enough to make a real evaluation.
The WB mark, no bomb and 6 row is correct. In that range, a GHD mark can also be correct, the change of inspectors and change to 4 row happened at about the same time. And you will find some lower numbers that have the bomb on the receiver. There is a small amount of mix and match in this serial range.
Bruce,
These were the only other photos on RIA's web site regarding this 'rather expensive' gun.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rmarking-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...kmarking-1.jpg
David
That is a durn nice looking shotgun. Well bought!
I saw 2 that nice at the Antique Gun Show in Las Vegas last weekend; $6000 each.
Now I am ****ed: I only got $5k for mine