Ishapore No1 MKIII* hard closing bolt

A week or two ago I posted asking about stock markings on this newly acquired Ishapore No1 MKIII*. Now however I was wondering about a possible mechanical issue. Yesterday I made some dummy cartridges with some spent brass I had laying around. I full length sized it and basically made it to spec, all measurements were bang on, that's when the confusion started. I loaded a stripper clip of the dummy cartridges into the rifle and found out one of two things the magazine doesn't ride high enough in the magazine well for the bolt to grab the first cartridge and secondly when you go to close the bolt on the cartridge I found that the bolt has to be fully forward ( kind of a no-brainer) and if it's something like a 1/16" off it locks up and will not close. I assume this could all be explained by my inexperience with the operation of this particular rifles action but is there a chance it could be something more serious?

For the non closing bolt, there's a chance that your bolt head has unscrewed by one complete turn. Correct this problem first. If the cartyridges won't load from the magazine it will only be one problem with a couple of causes. The problem is that they're not high up enough in the magazine well - caused by a defective magazine or that it's not positioned in the magazine well correctly.

If it was all working correctly before, then it's clearly something that you've done since

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

For the non closing bolt, there's a chance that your bolt head has unscrewed by one complete turn. Correct this problem first.

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The bolt head is completely screwed in, and I guess to clarify it does close but with some force. The rear portion of the large locking lug doesn't like to slide on that portion of the locking surface where it can best be described as a 45 degree angle to a flat, that's the portion where it locks up at.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The problem is that they're not high up enough in the magazine well - caused by a defective magazine or that it's not positioned in the magazine well correctly

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I'm thinking the magazine is "defective" because looking at the locking notch portion it appears that is has been ground or some such thing (prior to rifle purchase) I'm confident that this is the cause because I can push the magazine up about 1/16" of an inch and it will catch the rim of the cartridges and it will chamber.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

If it was all working correctly before, then it's clearly something that you've done since

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This is the first time I did an actual function test and I only took the rifle down to clean it and put it back together the same at it was so its unlikely I put it back together incorrectly not impossible but unlikely.

The rifle is designed to be fed from the magazine. If you place a round in the chamber and then try to close the bolt on it, chances are the extractor is binding on the cartridge rim. Especially true if the extractor is stiff or glued up with old grease. Also check the extractor slot for crud.

Does the bolt close easily with no round in the chamber? Might be that the drill rounds you have made need to be trimmed or resized.

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Originally Posted by Thunderbox

The rifle is designed to be fed from the magazine. If you place a round in the chamber and then try to close the bolt on it, chances are the extractor is binding on the cartridge rim. Especially true if the extractor is stiff or glued up with old grease. Also check the extractor slot for crud.

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The rounds are being fed as they should, where the rim slides up under the extractor

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Originally Posted by Thunderbox

Does the bolt close easily with no round in the chamber? Might be that the drill rounds you have made need to be trimmed or resized

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Yes the bolt closes with ease with nothing in the chamber. All the drill rounds are to the spec of the .303 down to the .001 and they function flawlessly in my No4 MK1 so I highly dought they are the cause

If the rounds are feeding from the mag as they should and the bolt closes on an empty chamber there may be an obstruction in the chamber itself or else some time in the past a previous owner may have swapped the bolt head or entire bolt to ''improve'' headspace. When you FL sized the cases did the shell holder contact the bottom of the die? Its rare but sometimes cases fired in one rifle may not fit another even though they've been FL sized. Try a factory round or a new unfired case and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

If the rounds are feeding from the mag as they should and the bolt closes on an empty chamber there may be an obstruction in the chamber itself or else some time in the past a previous owner may have swapped the bolt head or entire bolt to ''improve'' headspace.

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The chamber from what I can see is clear, the bolt head may have been swapped but I highly doubt it was because the finish matches the bolt and there is no chance its a different bolt because the rifle has all serials matching including the bolt.

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

When you FL sized the cases did the shell holder contact the bottom of the die? Its rare but sometimes cases fired in one rifle may not fit another even though they've been FL sized. Try a factory round or a new unfired case and see what happens.

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The die was set properly and the shell holder did contact the bottom of the die, I guess I should try a factory cartridge to check.

Update---------------------------------------------------------

I put a factory cartridge through it and still the same thing happens, upon further inspection I think it may be due to a number of factors affecting the bolt, the extractor is a bit crudded up, the notched area of the bolt where the cocking piece rotates is also fairly dirty, and possibly spring tension from newer springs although with my limited knowledge about the workings of the No.1 MKIII bolt this is only speculation.

Sorry for the double post but after closely looking at the action while I was operating it both with and with out a cartridge I have come to the conclusion that it is in fact an issue with the extractor but not on the bolt end rather the notch in the receiver where the extractor fits in. I believe that when the cartridge rim pushes the extractor outwards it is binding somewhere in that notch probably due to old grease and garbage that has built up.


Update--------------

I cleaned out that notch and no noticeable difference was made. I can't honestly say I know what is causing this issue.

Update-----------------------

Well I found out what the culprit was, now the question how do I get it fixed. It turns out that the bolt has some wiggle to it and not just when its fully pulled to the rear either. This play that it has doesn't affect the bolt going into battery when no cartridge in involved but the second you add a cartridge it lifts up the bolt head up slightly causing the top edge of bolt head to hit the portion of the receiver the barrel screws into causing the bolt to bind up.

Remove the extractor and see if the bolt will close................

Sorry if you didn't see my second update when I updated my previous post but its explains my findings.

Can you post some pictures of the action?

If I had one in that condition, I'd put a little chamfer on the bolt head and perhaps also the receiver ring where the two are jamming. It probably wouldn't take much to relieve the interference. This doesn't mean that you necessarily have the tools or experience to do the job without compromising safety - but if you do . . .

If it's only happening when a cartridge is present, you might first try some judicious stoning on the sharp edges of the extractor where the case head has to slide by during feeding. Smoothing the rough edges can alleviate the friction that's causing the bolt to lift and jam. The worst you can do is ruin the extractor, so it's a good task for a beginner. (Could also be that you have the larger extractor intended for the 7.62mm 2A. I imagine that might cause this kind of problem.)

If you want to salvage the molested magazine, a competent welder can add a bit to the lug that engages the magazine catch. The lug can then be dressed down for a perfect fit.

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

If I had one in that condition, I'd put a little chamfer on the bolt head and perhaps also the receiver ring where the two are jamming. It probably wouldn't take much to relieve the interference. This doesn't mean that you necessarily have the tools or experience to do the job without compromising safety

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Yeah I don't have the qualifications to do such a task nor would I feel safe modifying such a crucial part of the rifle.

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

If it's only happening when a cartridge is present, you might first try some judicious stoning on the sharp edges of the extractor where the case head has to slide by during feeding. Smoothing the rough edges can alleviate the friction that's causing the bolt to lift and jam. The worst you can do is ruin the extractor, so it's a good task for a beginner. (Could also be that you have the larger extractor intended for the 7.62mm 2A. I imagine that might cause this kind of problem.)

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I will look into that but I think its more due to the spring pressure of the extractor spring rather than sharp edges.

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

If you want to salvage the molested magazine, a competent welder can add a bit to the lug that engages the magazine catch. The lug can then be dressed down for a perfect fit.

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Luckily I have a welder and I'm pretty competent and if I do manage to screw it up i can get a new magazine for 40 dollars if the need arises.

Also here are some pictures of the action, one with no cartridge second with a cartridge and binding.

No cartridge
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_1338-1.jpg

With cartridge and binding
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_1337-1.jpg

Does having rounds in the magazine have any influence on whether the bolt head crashes the reciever ring?

It's a "matching" bolt, but is it the bolt that it was first issued or is it possibly a replacement? Photos of the action body/receiver and bolt S/N would help if you are uncertain.

I suspect that rear of the action( the split area behind the locking surfaces) is either worn or sprung, thus allowing excess play in the bolt. But ifthe bolt's been swapped it may be just a little undersized.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Does having rounds in the magazine have any influence on whether the bolt head crashes the reciever ring?

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Its hard to say if the magazine has any affect on the bolt because the magazine isn't riding high enough in the mag well

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Originally Posted by jmoore

It's a "matching" bolt, but is it the bolt that it was first issued or is it possibly a replacement? Photos of the action body/receiver and bolt S/N would help if you are uncertain.

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There is quite a bit of play with the bolt but I'm pretty sure its the original because there doesn't appear to be any crossing out of a previous serial number and the serial number on the action is 813XXH and on the bolt handle its H813XX

Time to take it to someone who can troubleshoot instead of following shadows around the houses. We are getting to the age old question 'dear editor, my car won't start, What's wrong with it................?

We can't see it and descriptions, such as they are aren't helpful

well if the solution is take it to a gunsmith then that's that but I did find out something a bit disturbing and I'm almost positive it shouldn't happen. When you have the bolt about 5/8-3/4 of the way into the receiver the play in the bolt is so great that you can actually unclip the bolt head from that rail on which it rides which I'm pretty sure isn't normal.

Yah, I think you are correct. It may be time to retire it.

well I took some pictures of the bolt in the receiver showing the gaps and trying to depict the play I'm experiencing

1. Gap between that rail and bolt.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_1343-1.jpg

2.bolt vertical movement no pressure on rear of bolt and slight finger pressure.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_1344-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_1347-1.jpg

3. Rear locking surfaces
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_1350-1.jpg

4. left side of receiver
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_1348-1.jpg

5.Receiver no magazine/bolt
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_1352-1.jpg

6. bolt head unclipped from rail/ bolt gap.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_1354-1.jpg

I found the reason for the magazine modification, it does affect the closing of the bolt that being said I think its safe to say this rifle while looking nice is completely pooched.

Take the bolthead off completely and THEN try to close the bolt. If it does close, then the bolt head or it's geometry is the problem. I don't want to sound facetious or a smart arse, but it's problem solving by deduction. And that's usually the trait of garage mechanics. They'll start by changing parts until it's fixed. But they YOU have to pay for all of the parts, even though some or most of the parts they've replaced weren't faulty in the first place! Oh well.............

When we were apprentices, we all used to moan and groan about why we had to learn, in almost intimate detail, the smallest why's and wherefores of every little mechanical sub-action of the various parts of the weapon that were acting simultaneously, spring action and spring load. But the instructors would throw in low ballers, as if asking an 'experienced' Armourer a technical question over the phone, from 200 miles away (they were still in the classroom of course, with the .300" M1919 sat on their lap while you tried to bull-shi......er...., waffle your way through their problem.

The problem - as any doctor will tell you (and how Roger Payne will be nodding in agreement here......) is describing the problem!

It sounds as if the body is worn out. Not uncommon with Indian or other well used Lees.

You bet Peter. In fact the ability to describe the problem concisely can make the difference between a patient I 'enjoy' seeing & a heartsink. (You know - 'heartsinks' - every time they come into my surgery my heart sinks!). And of course it applies to trouble-shooting enfields too.....

ATB

I think its safe to say the action is worn out, looking at other no1 mk3 actions there is definite wear on the left side of the receiver. So the only conclusions i can come to are either sell it and hopefully make back some of the money I spent on the silly thing or use it as a parts rifle to bring back a sporter when ever I get money to buy a sporter that is.

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Originally Posted by Lucite

I think its safe to say the action is worn out, looking at other no1 mk3 actions there is definite wear on the left side of the receiver. So the only conclusions i can come to are either sell it and hopefully make back some of the money I spent on the silly thing or use it as a parts rifle to bring back a sporter when ever I get money to buy a sporter that is.

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I think you may be over-diagnosing your rifle. Nearly every rifle I've encountered with similar problems has proved to be easily fixed one way or another - as Peter says, its simply a matter of deducing the problem by eliminating the possibilities in a methodical manner. I expect your rifle has a minor problem with the extractor or extractor slot.

The photos you have posted show a rifle that appears (within the limitations of a photo) to be an all-matching Ishapore in a decent original condition. Based on its appearance I'd be surprised if it was worn out, and don't think you'd be able to tell that just by looking at it. There is wide variation in No1 receivers anyway, so looks can be very deceptive. What do you mean by "definite wear on the left side of the receiver"? Enfields drag each extracted cartridge case along the left receiver wall - that is how they eject.

I took this short video of what is happening, hopefully this help.

DSC_1362.mp4 video by Lucite01 - Photobucket

Now take the extractor out and try the same again and let's see it. It LOOKS as though the front face of the bolt head is JUST touching the rear face of the receiver ring preventing the bolt head from going fully forwards and therefore not allowing the bolt to rotate in order to lock-up.

Not an approved method of repair but put a small chamfer on the fouling edge of the bolt head and see if that doesn't allow the bolt head to cam down slightly against the torque of the extractor spring (that's pulling the bolt head outwards to the right slightly) and seat up against the cartridge case and then rotate downwards to positively lock-up

It is a worn body without any doubt but as the Indian Army Liaison Officer here constantly tells me..................'Captain Peter, they are ALL worn....., that's why we sell them off!' Well, can't say fairer than that can they?

This is the same problem as my 1916 Enfield, the bolt closes with out a round but gets stuck with one, my problem was that when I was chambering a round, the extractor spring was pusing the bolt head away from the cartridge and hitting the receiver ring . I did as Peter said and smoothed off the contact area, perhaps a new bolt head may help with yours.

This is with no extractor, about how much should be taken off the contacting edge?
DSC_1365.mp4 video by Lucite01 - Photobucket

Did you notice a difference? if so, eyeball the top and sides of the extractor for wear marks, maybe a slight cleanup there may be all it needs, before hooking in to the receiver.

The videos show an extractor mortise with some burrs. Smoothing those out might help.

As for "how much should be taken off the contacting edge?" - the answer is "enough but no more". From an engineering standpoint, we really need only enough bolt face remaining to support the base of the cartridge, not counting the rim (which isn't directly subjected to firing pressure) - so one could put a fairly serious chamfer where it's jamming without meaningful reduction of the normal pressure containment system. On the other hand, there shouldn't be any increase in the visible gap between bolt head and receiver ring when the bolt is closed - since a good fit there is part of the system that directs escaping gas away from the firer in the event of a ruptured case.

But before chamfering the bolt head, at least try deburring both the extractor and the barrel mortise into which it fits when the bolt goes forward.

Nope............, DEFINATELY the bolt head fouling the rear of the breeching ring. Just chamfer the top right hand edge of the bolt head, sufficient for the bolthead to cam its own way down so that it slips INTO the breeching up ring instead of tending to abutt against it.

Not an approved method of repair so far as I can ascertain but if this was one of ours, we'd have gauged and tested it with a slave 'gauge' bolt that the examiner would have had and then certified it ZF............ the death knell for all weapons

But if you can make yours serviceable with a small chamfer, then go ahead

Agreed, Captain, we can see that the bolt head is jamming against the receiver ring. My question is exactly what it pushing it up/over there only when a cartridge is present? If it's the extractor (as you indicated in post #27 here), is it due to extractor deformity? In normal operation, the extractor bears against the inclined mortise surface, withdrawing its hook from firm radial contact with the cartridge body, and the presence of a cartridge shouldn't affect pressure on the spring as the bolt is closing. I suspect the extractor is either too long (perhaps the 7.62 version) or is burred/deformed.

Regardless of the root cause, a small chamfer certainly seems a practical remedy.

From what I can tell its a number of things, the magazine follower, the front left tab on the magazine and the extractor all combined to cause this

All are problems most likely associated with excessive slop in the bolt runway of the body. Give the bolt head the chamfer as instructed by Peter and I'd bet it'll be good to go.

well I took some 800 grit sand paper and made a slight chamfer which really didn't do much, but my main concern it taking too much off and creating a safety hazard.

It won't create a safety hazard if you use care. Use a sharp file but go easy. I don't think 800 grit sand paper will give it more than a polish.

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Originally Posted by Lucite

. . . my main concern it taking too much off and creating a safety hazard.

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If you compare the size of the bolt face to that of the cartridge rim, you should see that there's room for a substantial chamfer without compromising cartridge support, even without considering that, with modern solid-head cases, there's no real need to support the portion of the rim that extends beyond the case body's major diameter. It is, however, important to limit any chamfer to the portion of the bolt head that is enclosed within the receiver ring when the bolt is locked. (In the illustration below, the portion of this area that isn't enclosed was blackened with a marker to highlight the enclosed, unmarked, portion.) Extending a chamfer beyond the enclosed portion would provide an undesirable escape path for gas and debris from a split case or blown primer, instead of directing it to the gas escape hole on the left side of the receiver ring and the ejector cut on the right.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2ednz0n-1.jpg

It seems very unlikely that any serviceable SMLE would require a chamfer anywhere near as large as that indicated by the green lines. A 45-degree chamfer with face width under 1/32" should be more than enough.

Lucite, from these 4x pages, can I reasonably assume that you aren't a technical sort of person........... In much the same way as I'm not a computer person!

You can be rest assured, in the nicest possible way, that 800 grit is going to be hard pushed to chamfer a fingernail, let alone chamfer a block of tough steel that has been case hardened to boot. Attack it with a grinder as shown by Parashooter

Other forumers also take note that the front magazine lips should be absolutely and totally clear of the barrel of the bolt. They are simply to hold the nose of the bullet until it strikes the feed ramp and THEN, that action unhooks the bullet from the left or right lip and leaves the nose of the bullet to wend its weary way up the feed ramp and into the chamber.

If the front feed lips can be forced up so as to touch the bolt body then it indicates that the magazine is defective where the top front edge contacts the MAGAZINE STOP FACE at the front of the magazine well OR that the actual magazine stop face in the body is worn away. Yet another defect that will ZF a No1,4 or 5 rifle

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Lucite, from these 4x pages, can I reasonably assume that you aren't a technical sort of person........... In much the same way as I'm not a computer person!

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I am a fairly technical person but I am also fairly new to guns and I want to make damn sure I know exactly what I'm doing so I don't kill/ maim myself especially when it comes to modifying the bolt head.

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A 45-degree chamfer with face width under 1/32" should be more than enough.

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okay so under 0.031 is all I need to know

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Originally Posted by Lucite

okay so under 0.031 is all I need to know

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Yikes! Please don't think that's all you need to know!

I'd guess from your response you're thinking I've given you a specific dimension that will work for your rifle. Actually, I'm trying to explain the underlying principles involved so you can determine for yourself how much would be too much.

Use a marker on the closed bolt to show you how far the bolt head extends into your receiver ring - it might be more or less than what we see on the picture of my bolt. Then proceed with fine file or abrasive stone to make a very small chamfer in the area where the bolt head is jamming on the receiver ring, taking off no more than .003". Try it in the rifle with an inert cartridge ("dummy round"). If it works, stop there! If not, take off a little more metal and try again. Repeat as necessary. If your chamfer is getting close to the marked area, stop there!

This business of "cut and try" is a traditional method used in hand-fitting firearms. It can be tedious because each cut is very small - but it works when the brain controlling the tool has sufficient patience. If that doesn't describe your approach, please hand the job to someone better suited for it.

I used a needle file when I did mine, It looked a bit rough but when it worked, the roughness soon nicely rounded after I racked a few dozen drill rounds through it.

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

Yikes! Please don't think that's all you need to know!

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Sorry for the misunderstanding I didn't mean that 0.031 was how much to take off rather the space I had to do it in, I only took of about .002 if that from the contacting edge and still no change. I'm debating weather to take it to a gunsmith now or to just sell it and remove the headache it has been causing.

" . . . proceed with fine file or abrasive stone to make a very small chamfer in the area where the bolt head is jamming on the receiver ring, taking off no more than .003". Try it in the rifle with an inert cartridge ("dummy round"). If it works, stop there!If not, take off a little more metal and try again. Repeat as necessary."

Sometimes when words aren't working, we draw pictures -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/159h7s-1.jpg

The problem with taking it to a commercial gunsmith is that many of them don't know much about either the basic principles involved or the specifics of the Lee-Enfield. If you can find someone knowledgeable on both, he can probably fix it in under five minutes with a few judicious file strokes.

I managed to take it to a gunsmith and he said it was due to an improperly fit magazine causing the bolt head to lift up.