1871/84 Mauser

I'm looking at acquiring a 1871/84 Mauser. It is an Amberg with no battalion markings on the buttstock plate. I'm looking for someone who is familiar with these rifles to help me set value to offer the owner. The seller is declining to permit a three day non-firing inspection and just wants to sell it and be done with it. Supposedly the bore is in good condition.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...n7184003-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...n7184010-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...n7184012-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...n7184011-1.jpg

More pics:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mbers005-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...n7184008-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...n7184007-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mbers011-1.jpg

I wouldn´t chance buying a black powder rifle without inspecting the action out of the stock. Rust pitting is usually to be found under the wood. And you would definitely need to view the bore. Apparently, quite a few 71/84 rifles were exported to the US straight out of storage that had never been issued (apart from colonial use, these Mausers were never used in action). But some had been through German colonial service and might not be in such good condition.

I am not a collector but it seems that lack of unit stamps etc. would lower the market value. The 71 & 71/84 rifles were "fully numbered", which means that every single part and even the smallest screw was stamped, so you would have to disassemble the gun to make sure. Replacing parts that are then not numbered to the gun would also reduce value. I have no idea what the US price might be, but in Europe they are available at somewhere around the 500€ mark. Loaded BP ammunition and good quality cases are available in the US and some people shoot them with nitro (I wouldn´t advise doing this).

The Mauser 71 and 71/84 were among the first metal cartridge guns to be issued to a national army and I am sure that they will increase in value.

Patrick Villiers is, of course, quite right (Patricks are always right, OK?).

I understand the unwillingness of the present owner to let it out of his hands for inspection. These rifles often lack one or more of the internal parts, such as the magazine spring, the cap on the end of the spring that stops the spring expanding forwards in to the loading mechanism when there is no cartridge left, and the odd lever thingy that separates the cartridges when loading, so that the system does not try to load 2 cartridges. I would not want to lend out a rifle with the risk of having it returned with one of these parts missing or replaced by an inferior example! But for this very reason, you must inspect the rifle thoroughly before purchase.

So a fair way of satisfying the interests of both parties is as follows:

You arrange to meet the seller, taking with you a proper set of screwdrivers that will not ruin the screw slots, plus cleaning rod, patches etc. - and an appropriate amount of cash.
You agree on "This is the price I will pay you, cash, on the spot, no further haggling, if I can remove the action from the stock here, right now, in front of you, clean and inspect the bore and barrel channel, and am satisfied with the result."

If the seller was, for instance, myself, with a good conscience, knowing that all is OK beneath the surface, the response would be something like "OK; but as it is my gun, I'd rather dismantle it myself."

Good idea? - No risks for the seller or buyer (apart from your ability to evaluate what you see!).

:wave:
Patrick

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

These rifles often lack one or more of the internal parts,

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What would be the reason for this notorious lack of internal parts?

You'll find a 125 pic photo montage of an "all correct" with clear detailed markings 1887 I.G. (Infanterie-Gewehr) Model 71/84 (11mm) Mauser (click here), displayed in the Germany - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

1887 I.G. (Infanterie-Gewehr) Model 71/84 (11mm) Mauser
(Manufactured at Amberg Arsenal in 1887)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG

Perhaps go to the link for Keith Doyan in that entry and see if there's contact information for him, if you don't have any luck getting an answer here.

Hope that helps ... :)

Regards,
Doug

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Originally Posted by MeatMarket

What would be the reason for this notorious lack of internal parts?

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Cannibalizing, I think.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

(Patricks are always right, OK?).

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What will this statement say?:D

But in this case mercman, you can count on them! Would be a fair deal.

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Originally Posted by gunner

What will this statement say?:D

But in this case mercman, you can count on them! Would be a fair deal.

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Think it means that I´m still learning the black art of black powder. But I´ve made quite some progress and hope to be able to impress with scientific data on New Year´s Day (or set fire to house).

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

the cap on the end of the spring that stops the spring expanding forwards in to the loading mechanism when there is no cartridge left,

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A serious warning to anyone handling an M71/84: If the loading tray will not open fully DO NOT FORCE IT.

This actually happened to a collector I know, whose specialization is handguns, but who had picked up an M71/84:

He showed it to me, noting that he could not open the breech fully to load rounds into the magazine. The loading tray would not descend completely. Fortunately I knew a bit more about these gadgets, and warned him not to try and open it by force. The cap on the end of the spring was missing, so the end of the spring had pushed right forwards underneath the loading tray. Attempting to fully open the breech by force would have resulted in the end of the spring being totally distorted. And that is a very long spring to make...

If you have this problem (and you only know what the cause was AFTER you have dismantled the rifle) then the only way to sort it out is to remove the cap at the front end of the magazine and remove the spring. You will have to "unwind it; i.e. in effect unscrew it so that the end comes out wthout snagging. When the spring comes out without the cap on the end, then you know what the trouble was.

:wave:
Patrick

This one looks like an early 1960's import, likely ex-Spain. Likely near new barrel, but do check the bore! Looks clean and not messed with, I would likely go for it. Don't see too many, so I'll guess $300.00. Is that in the ball park?

Gentlemen, thank you for the responses! I would love to meet the seller FTF but I am in WA state and he is in Illinois, about 2400 miles apart. Initially I was told the the rifle was in mint condition with battalion markings. The seller then downgraded the condition of the rifle and stated there were no battalion markings. The seller's initial price was $750 + shipping. His downgraded price was $675 + shipping.

Given the changes in condition, the unknown bore condition and the refusal of a three day inspection I was planning on making a substantially lower offer. Initially I was thinking $500 shipped but given the information I've receive here that sounds like too generous of an offer. I may just have to let this on pass on by...............................

That sounds like the sensible thing to do.

Mercman, a seller back-pedalling on the description is a real red-flag warning sign. Leave it. One thing I have learnt is: buying a rifle without inspection is a lottery. Too many are shiny on the outside and scrap on the inside. And if you wait long enough, it all turns up. Like this, for the Mauser fan who has just about everything else:

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=3604752

As I have the smallest Mauser, and the oldest Mauser, the biggest would seem an obvious add-on. However, quite apart from the price, there are a few problems:

1) You need titanium shoulders. This banger would, for me, present a serious mechanical hazard.
2) Case are not exactly available over the counter. But I suppose if you've got the money for the rifle, a 100 or so per case isn't going to stop you.
3) And if you load it as intended, then there is probably no public range in this country that permits you to shoot projectiles at the full-load energy level. A 52,2 gram bullet emerging from the muzzle at 790 meters/sec* means a muzzle energy of around 16300 joules. Max. range about 8 km.*

But, of course, it's the ideal conversation piece to out-macho BMG50 shooters who think they've got a big one...:D

Still, I hope some intrepid soul buys it and shoots it.

:wave:
Patrick

*From a German test report on antitank devices

Patrick, I saw that ... and the price! (Bet it´s got the infamous "wandering zero"). Don´t think it´d be any worse to shoot than most of the WWII anti-tank rifles.

I wonder if one could make a "time-sharing" arrangement for the M18. Like each takes one shot,:madsmile: and then has a week or two in the hospital, after handing over the rifle to the next one eager for a one-time experience.
OK, maybe two shots (one for each shoulder).:madsmile::madsmile: Or perhaps I should just calm down and return to my .22 short trainer! (That's what the doc would advise!)

:wave:
Patrick

I´d trust old man Mauser to make one that wont cripple a normal infantryman. Dunno how many times I´ve been told that a No. 5 (and my 33/40) would cause permanent damage but have never heard of anyone in the armed forces invalided by a rifle. Patrick, you buy it and I´ll have first go (I´m an organ donor, so no great loss).

Both of you Patrick`s have a great humor! villiers if you won´t survive the shooting can i have your thyroid?:madsmile:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Patrick, you buy it and I´ll have first go

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Funny, that is exactly what I was going to say!

You guys are a hoot! Yeah, unfortunately I'm leaving this one alone. Sigh. Recoil doesn't deter me, however, I've survived Remington 600's in .350 Rem Mag, Ruger No. 1's in .375 H&H and ultralight Mdl 700's in 8MM Rem Mag. I guess the Navy knocked all the brains out of me years ago. Thanks much all for the sage advice.

That's actually not a bad price for a T Gewehr, given the current trend, although it would hurt to pay that. About 20 years ago, I bought one for 1500, (and like a fool sold it) and have since picked another one up. Last year (late 2010 I think) Rock Island had one which went for around 8800 USD or thereabouts, and this summer RIA had another one which went around the 30k mark if memory serves me.

I've seen a video of one of these being fired back in early WWII on the Russian front. The soldier is dug in and is moved backwards by the recoil about 3 or 4 feet. In WWI, these were manned by a crew of two, who would alternate shooting. Apparently, after about three rounds, bleeding noses and eardrums were not uncommon, and if you didn't hold the rifle correctly, it would break your collarbone.

Here's a photo of my T-Gewehr's bolt next to a standard Mauser bolt.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...serinfan-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oG98bolt-1.jpg

Really, not much different in round size than one of our modern long range sniper rifles, but what a difference a recoil system makes!

Ed

Hard to believe but there 3 (yes, 3) for sale at the last Reno Gunshow. I guess they were not sold, either.

That´s the problem. Watching the German eGun auction site, you can make out two groups. The first put their desirable gun in at a rediculously low price and wait for the bids to hike the price. The second group puts it in at the price they hope to achieve ... and they usually remain unsold. The risk for the first group is that they are forced to sell at below what they hoped to achieve (you are not supposed to remove an item once bidding has started). Or you can offer your gun to a dealer who can only give about 1/3 of the market price as he has to cover the risk and his overheads.

To Gunner: Wot´s a thyroid? Dunno whether I´ve even got one. But if I have ... it´s yours)

To echo the answers to the original question posed in this thread about the Mauser 71/84 before it derailed into T-Gewehrs, I would agree with the advice given about not buying it. 1871/84's are really neat rifles, and can be had in very nice condition. However, they do have a number of fussy little parts which can be missing or broken. I bought a "minty" one on the internet, and it turned out to be beautiful, all matching, but missing one piece of the elevator lift mechanism, so it wouldn't cam the feed ramp properly. It also had a broken safety, something I've seen on about 7 of those rifles. The safety on the 71/84 has a fairly long shaft, and it seems to be prone to breaking in the middle, resulting in the safety just flipping back and forth but not doing anything useful. You can replace it with another one, if you can find one, but then it won't match anymore. I'm going to take mine to a machine shop and see if they can weld it back together and then grind it smooth--if that works, then at least I'll still have the matching one, but if not, then I will either have a lovely rifle with a broken safety, or a lovely rifle with a non-matching safety. And that doesn't even deal with the other issues mentioned by members in this thread--rust beneath the surface of the stock, etc.

Cheers

Ed

hej
will try the mauser 71/84 with 22 gn vith n110 446 gn regular lyman bullet and dominion cases ,will see what it gives at 100 m
greetings from over the pond
jarmann

I just shot one a few weeks ago. I'm talking about a 71/84. The rounds were loaded with 15 gr. of Trail Boss. We were shooting at 125 yds. It was accurate and easy on the shoulder. A very nice pleasant rifle to shoot.