My New Irish No. I, MkI***

New Irish No. I, MkI***

Just got this serial numer matching 1903 dated, No I, Mk I***rifle from an auction. The following is what I gathered from researching about the Mk*** rifles and their Irish service as I was not familiar with them until I saw it on auction and looked up everything. I'm sure some folks here could ad some more info on it.
Anyway, the rifle appears to have all the correct arsenal updates that are normally associated with the Mk*** series, which includes some Mk III updates like stocks, (apparenty a MkIII stock was used as a wood piece was added where the Charger bridge was), rear sights and sight protector,
The rifle had traveled to Ireland post war, via British material assistance and served with the Free Irish National Army in the early 20's during their 2nd CW. The serial numbers were restamped with Irish serial numbers. Irish serial numbers have ER, CR and possibly G preceding the serial numbers.
I believe a little over 4,000 of these Irish rifles were imported to the US in the 1960's. And every once in a while they come up for sale.
I wanted a Mk I for a while because of the early features including the bolt head charger instead of the later charger bridge and the volley sights, early style front sight protector and mag cutoff so I was looking for one. The Irish connection adds a little more history to it. Of course my quest is still unfilled as I have to get an one in it's original condition and un-modified, alas, never ending quests in this hobby, Ray

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Beautiful rifle...

Nice rifle. Interesting that they converted the rear hand guard to the mkIII type, instead of putting a new one on.


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Most of the Mark 1*** rifles that you find in the USA are either ER or CR with a new serial number. The ER prefix appears to have fewer Mark 111 parts. Some question about the G prefix too. Photo shows an original BSA 1906 Mark 1*** upgraded in '11 serial number s over 87176 matching barrel, rear sight leaf and bolt

My G prefix grenade launching rifle has all mkI features except possibly the upper hand guard.


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I have what i believe to be an Irish as well. It is the reason that I joined this site and that is perhaps the best part about the gun. I started a thread on it a long while back. Ill post a link below so you can compair if you would like. The pictures are posted in post #8, its a ways down. If you wouldnt mind, could you tell us what you paid? If not, I understand completely. Will you shoot it? I shoot mine on a semi-regular basis and love it.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=25273

-mdrim13

Nice rifle and it still has it's original rear sight. Yours also had the original stock replaced with a MkIII one as mine did.

I probably paid a bit too much for mine but I had two old guns I didn't want anymore and sold them and the money was just burning a hole in my pocket and went I saw this rifle, and as I mentioned, I always wanted an early SMLE to fill a hole in my Enfield collection so I went for it.
I wasn't sure what they were selling for currently. I ran across two a couple years ago that sold for less then $500 and then I saw the first one I linked below and what it sold for recently so it kind of gave me an idea so I bid on the 2nd one which went for a bit less though not as nice as the other one. I see yours was a gift. Good for you I couldn't think of a nicer gift to get, Ray

BRITISH #1 SHORT LEE ENFIELD-LONDON SMALLARMS 1906 : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com

BRITISH #1 MK I ENFIELD SHORT RIFLE-1903-MATCHING : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com

Please open the link below to the knowledge library article on the MkI*** Added to the article, keep reading down the page for the observations by John Thorne, and then his "collectors feedback" on the rifle in the article. There is a lot there he has gained from his personal research and sharing with us all. Below this I have added a short explanation as to why there is no such thing as a "No1 Mk1". Before you go and say either "it is written that way elsewhere" or "we all know what we mean"... consider that if everyone calls it by something other than it's designation, then it will become known as something that it is not. It is the same as calling a No3, No4 or No5 rifle an SMLE..... WRONG....

Milsurps - 1907 ShtLE (Short Lee-Enfield) MkI*** Rifle

I also stand corrected. I called it a No. I, instead of a No. 1.
Good alert to using the proper discription, Thanks Son.
Apparently there are a number of grenade launcher wrapped rifles with the "G" prefix.
From what I've read, the Irish National army was only armed with rifles and or light ordnance and the rifle grenades gave them a bit of a heavier type weapon.
Hmm, I wonder if the "G" didn't stand for Grenade in their serial number inventory. I believe all of the G rifles I have seen in my research, all were grenade wrapped or were at one time. Ray

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Originally Posted by rayg

I also stand corrected. I called it a No. I, instead of a No. 1.
Good alert to using the proper discription, Thanks Son.
Apparently there are a number of grenade launcher wrapped rifles with the "G" prefix.
From what I've read, the Irish National army was only armed with rifles and or light ordnance and the rifle grenades gave them a bit of a heavier type weapon.
Hmm, I wonder if the "G" didn't stand for Grenade in their serial number inventory. I believe all of the G rifles I have seen in my research, all were grenade wrapped or were at one time. Ray

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Has anyone ever called for info on G prefixed MkI*** rifles? There is a lot of interest in the model here, so maybe a quick survey is an option to try to get a broader sample?

Here a couple posts that were on gunboards with a bit of info and history on the Irish rifles with some referrence to the G series,
These posts helped me to Id what mine was, Ray

Lee Enfield Mark I*** questions

Irish SMLEs?

Well I have a three day inspection of the rifle and with two of them gone already I figured I better take it out of the stock to check for any defects under the wood while there is still time to return it. I started to take it apart and to my surprise I found the horzonal screw on the front sight protecter staked fast, and it would not budge. After a bit of doing I finally freed it so it would unscrew. There were several other old stake marks there. Apparent they didn't want any one disassembling the rifle in service.
Anyway I got it apart and found that the underside was just packed full of cosomoline. But everything looked ok so it's a keeper, Ray

It's a nice rifle,glad you're keeping it.

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Originally Posted by rayg

Well I have a three day inspection of the rifle and with two of them gone already I figured I better take it out of the stock to check for any defects under the wood while there is still time to return it. I started to take it apart and to my surprise I found the horzonal screw on the front sight protecter staked fast, and it would not budge. After a bit of doing I finally freed it so it would unscrew. There were several other old stake marks there. Apparent they didn't want any one disassembling the rifle in service.
Anyway I got it apart and found that the underside was just packed full of cosomoline. But everything looked ok so it's a keeper, Ray

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Staked screws and cosmolene go towards it being as was when it left service... good decision to keep it, I think. Congrats on the pick up, I forgot to say earlier it's a good looking piece!

Son, did you read this thread I linked? It has some good detailed discussions on the "G" question, Ray, Irish SMLEs?

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Originally Posted by rayg

Nice rifle and it still has it's original rear sight. Yours also had the original stock replaced with a MkIII one as mine did.

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What makes you think the stock has been replaced? I was under the impression that the MkIII stock did not have the marking disk as mine did. Is this correct or not? It was my understanding that the marking disk was done away with in the MkIII upgades becuse it was giving info to the enemy. Let me know if Im off on this? Thanks.

mdrim13

Mk III stocks had the marking disks. It wasn't until later(1916 or so) that the disks were supposed to be discontinued.

It looks like it once had the charger bridge cutout that was filled in. At least that's what it appears in the photo, Ray

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Originally Posted by Son

Has anyone ever called for info on G prefixed MkI*** rifles? There is a lot of interest in the model here, so maybe a quick survey is an option to try to get a broader sample?

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congratulations with your find RAYG, many happy years of happy enjoyment to you. we irish had only one CW 1922/23 after the treaty with the UK,any other conflicts since were mainly sectarian

This Enfield 1904 Mark 1*** is on the third serial number which is G 839 while the bolt is G 837. There appears to be faint marks on the rear handguard from a wire wrap. There is a good chance that this was converted from a grenade launcher back to a normal issue rifle.

Those are some nice rifles there! I find the variations fascinating. I have a Mk I which is wire wrapped for grenade use, stamped to Australia, and has the proper pattern nosecap, ivory buttoned rearsight, early pattern topwood, charger still on the bolt head, and steel buttplate with no trap. It has an E series serial number, and a second rack number put on it presumably in Australia.
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I also have a Mk I*** which has been renumbered when converted, as it has new serial on the bolt, receiver, and the old pattern nosecap is numbered to match as well. It retaines its charger on the bolthead, but it has the later pattern topwood/rearsight "ears", later pattern rearsight, the cutoff has been removed, and it has the more standard pattern buttplate with trap. The curious thing about it is that it may have started life as a Mk I*, since the first * is much more nicely stamped than the last two. Maybe someone knows if this happened with these rifles?

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I love the pre-WWI and WWI era Lee-Enfields. They're such classy rifles........

Ed

boltaction, no books at hand ATM, but yes, the Mk1 was made until mid 1905 (will take corrections here, working from memory) then they made the Mk1*.. so your 1904 will be a Mk1 as marked and the 1907 would have started as a Mk1* and got the other two ** with upgrade in 1914(?)
Has the 1907 got the correct serial number on the foreend? And original barrel too? Serial numbers on barrel? .. may have been a restoration

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Originally Posted by teal

congratulations with your find RAYG, many happy years of happy enjoyment to you. we irish had only one CW 1922/23 after the treaty with the UK,any other conflicts since were mainly sectarian

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I stand corrected, There were no two Civil Wars. The later conflict was in opposition to the tready. Thank you for correcting me. And a very happy New year to you also , Ray

I just reviewed the thread and noticed that the link I provided to the other rifle on auction that went for more then mine didn't work. So here it is again, Ray

Darn it, i didn't link again, will try some more

see if this works

BRITISH #1 SHORT LEE ENFIELD-LONDON SMALLARMS 1906 : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com

I would be unwise to tell any soldiers who were in Northern Ireland during 'the troubles' that it wasn't a civil war. There's a saying about ducks that if it looks like a duck, feels like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then you can be pretty well reassured that it IS a duck - unless the politicians tell you that it's not of course..........

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Originally Posted by Son

boltaction, no books at hand ATM, but yes, the Mk1 was made until mid 1905 (will take corrections here, working from memory) then they made the Mk1*.. so your 1904 will be a Mk1 as marked and the 1907 would have started as a Mk1* and got the other two ** with upgrade in 1914(?)
Has the 1907 got the correct serial number on the foreend? And original barrel too? Serial numbers on barrel? .. may have been a restoration

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The fore-end has no number on it, although the nosecap does have the serial number on it. The barrel is serialed as well.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rayg

I just reviewed the thread and noticed that the link I provided to the other rifle on auction that went for more then mine didn't work. So here it is again, Ray

Darn it, i didn't link again, will try some more

see if this works

BRITISH #1 SHORT LEE ENFIELD-LONDON SMALLARMS 1906 : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com

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I don't know why the link isn't working. It works when I edit and post it and review but not when I save changes. Well another try
BRITISH #1 SHORT LEE ENFIELD-LONDON SMALLARMS 1906 : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boltaction

I also have a Mk I*** which has been renumbered when converted, as it has new serial on the bolt, receiver, and the old pattern nosecap is numbered to match as well. It retaines its charger on the bolthead, but it has the later pattern topwood/rearsight "ears", later pattern rearsight, the cutoff has been removed, and it has the more standard pattern buttplate with trap. The curious thing about it is that it may have started life as a Mk I*, since the first * is much more nicely stamped than the last two. Maybe someone knows if this happened with these rifles?

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That one is VERY similar to mine. The original serial number to yours is even in the same series as mine. Both went into Irish service. Same Manufacturer and year of production even. Kind of odd they both end up on a website 100 years after the fact isn't it?

I have two rifles, an Enfield 1903 Mark 1** IP and a BSA 1904 Mark 1** IP. Photos show the Enfield upraded to Mark 111 in 1914 with a new barrel (India) serial numbered to the Enfield receiver.

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Originally Posted by mdrim13

That one is VERY similar to mine. The original serial number to yours is even in the same series as mine. Both went into Irish service. Same Manufacturer and year of production even. Kind of odd they both end up on a website 100 years after the fact isn't it?

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I think it's cool, and I love sites like this for this very reason. Just think, even 10 years ago, we wouldn't have been doing something like this. Now we can post pictures of a 105 or 108 year old rifle in British Columbia and find out someone in a different country or part of the world has its cousin! This is such a great place for sharing information and ensuring that interest in these great old items never fades.

Ed

Makes some sense that we would palm off all the old non-standard stuff onto the Free State. No point in giving them the good stuff.