No4Mk1T with 24 in barrel?

Hi and thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge. I recently ran across what appears to be a sporterized sniper- No4 Mk1 T. The barrel is 24 inches long. No scope or mount, but the pads are there. Bolt comes out without lifting the rear sight. Stock is sporterized. The only markings I remember are ROF, a capital T, 0 on the bolt head. The guy is asking $300. That's all I have on it at this time. Does the 24 inch barrel render this gun valueless? Or is it worth taking a closer look? Thanks again.

Some photos would be nice but the first question that comes to mind is does it still have it's bayonet lugs?

For $300 it's worth buying just for the action, if the bolt is original and matching, IMO

Yes, photo's would be nice. If it is marked 'ROF' & it is genuine then it may be a 1941 Maltby. All No4 T's are scarce, but those set up on rifles other than BSA's are considerably scarcer. If it is a real receiver it is worth at least the equivalent of 300 dollars this side of the pond. I know purists would argue it reduces its 'originality' but barrels (& other parts) can always be replaced....
Any chance of some photo's??

ATB

No chance of pictures. Unfortunately, he is the type of person that if I show that much interest he will hang on to it and it will rust in his basement. I will see if I can get more of the markings. No bayonet lugs. Thank you for the quick replies.

If the barrel is 24.2", I'd venture to guess it's still original and uncut.

Don't mean to be pedantic, but isn't the barrel length supposed to be 25.2"?

Brian, should'nt a full lenght No.4 barrel measure 25.2'', + or - a wee bit? If the barrel is dead on 24'' it would have been sawed off right through the bayo lugs, so the remains were likely groung off during the re-crowning process.

I am going to loook at it again today to try and get more markings. I found one for sale online that claims to be complete, all matching, and lists the barrel length at 24". Was this done on some of them? Since the stock has been sporterized, I was thinking of starting out with scope mount and modern scope for starters and slowly going back to original as money allows. I have a Nikon 3-9 40 (1" tube). Would this scope work temporarily just so I can try it out at the range? Forgot to mention that the bore looked great after we cleaned out the spider webs (seriously). Will hopefully have more to add later today. Thanks.

gsimmons, you and I were thinking the same thing at the same time obviously. Shooternurse, if a No.4 is being listed as having a 24'' barrel then it has been shortened, it's being measured wrong or somebody don't know how to read a tape measure. They all had/have 25.2'' barrels AFAIK.

I just took another look and here is what I found:

"T" on left side of receiver. Looked like there were other numbers at one time, but unable to make them out. Entire rifle has been reblued.

Screws holding front scope mount pad have been pinned.

Left side of butt socket : 47C. Under that is 1944. Under that is A30858. Under that is "TR"

On barrel is a letter which I couldn't read, followed by A30858.

Bolt has no serial # but is marked N67 MKII. Bolt head marked 0. Is this a transplant from a mkII? Safe to fire if headspace checks out?

I originally thought the rifle was marked ROF, but I guess I was remembering that from another rifle I had looked at. Also rear sight must be lifted to remove the bolt. I thought the sight had been relieved to make bolt removal easier, but again, faulty memory.

Looking at the buttstock, you can see where someone plugged two smalll holes where a cheekpiece would have been mounted before they refinished the wood. All remaining wood is in beautiful shape, but I guess that doesn't mean much since so much is missing.

Thanks shooter nurse. It sounds to be real enough although it is a 'common' No4 T built on a BSA Shirley rifle (The code being M47/C). As you indicate it was made in 1944 & the serial number of 'A' followed by five digits starting with a '3' is perfectly correct. It would also indicate it was likely made earlier in 1944 than later. Of course I don't know how much you value it or how much you like restoration projects but if I were in your shoes (which I know I'm not) I'd definitely buy it to rebuild back to its former glory. As you say, you don't have to do it all at once. Apart from the No32 scope & bracket, the remaining rifle parts are not so expensive & are usually available through outfits like Numrich etc. Alternatively, I'm sure there are forummers here who would help out.....

ATB

P.S. N67 is the code for The Singer Manufacturing Co. Are you sure the bolt is marked by them, & not the rearsight? Generally I would expect to see a N67 rearsight on a 1944 rifle. They also made foresight protectors as well. In my limited experience original bolts on BSA's were actually made by BSA themselves, & on a 44 rifle would be marked M47C to the left of where the serial number is marked on the bolt handle, by where it joins the bolt body. Unusual not to have a serial on the bolt.....perhaps a replacement or lost at the time of refinishing? The zero bolt head is a good sign, but I'd still suggest getting someone with headspace gauges to check it before firing it.

Yup, I stand corrected. That's what I meant 25.2"!! Sounds like it's cut. Too bad. Decent barrels are rare as rocking horse manure here too.

I stand corrected. They are 25.2" My fingers and brain were disconnected this morning. It's obviously been cut.

---------- Post added at 05:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------

Sorry for the double post. Crap ATT wireless is playing tricks on me again!

It depends what you are measuring.

25.2 is overall length, including breech thread.

24. something is the measurement from the rear of the knox form to the end of the muzzle.

I will go to the crypt and dig out the exact dimensions this morning.

Found it near the top of the sorting pile.

No. 4 barrel:

Overall length: 25.256 high, 25.200 low
Threaded tenon, 0.696 high, 0.693 low

Therefore, visible barrel approx 24.5...ish.

24" is close; it may have been re-crowned at some time. "Proper" No. 4 barrels have a peculiar crown which is a 0.080" radius that continues outwards to blend into the 28-32 deg inc. conical section that assists bayonet mounting.

If your barrel has a neat "target" crown, it has been "adjusted" outside the services at some time. One of my two "shooting" No.4s has such a crown: it got there via the previous owner's lathe in an effort to claw back some grouping ability. It worked.

I really appreciate all the input. Looks like I am going to buy it tomorrow. I will post pictures as soon as I can. I think this will be a fun project. I don't care so much about the eventual value as I will probably never sell owing to the fact that I have two nephews to pass it on to who are already accomplished rifleman at 16 and 17 years of age. Thanks again.

I suppose the n67 mkII could be on the cocking piece?
I'd definitely get it I would think - at least you know in that condition, someone isn't trying to fake it! I look forward to seeing your pictures.

Good point Prinz. I forgot about N67 marked cocking pieces!

Prinz & Roger - Now that you have jogged my memory, I believe you are right about the cocking piece. The rifle is mine, bought and paid for, but unfortunately in the press of things I had to do that day, I forgot to throw an empty rifle case in my trunk and could not legally bring it home that day. Then the real nursing world called and I had to work. Plan is to pick it up tomorrow morning before work. Fingers crossed. Pics soon (I hope). Thanks for your interest and support. This forum makes it a lot more fun. Funny that I never learned about this addiction in nursing school.

Got it. And learning more every day. Turns out the bolt is matching. Found matching number on buttstock, too. As a bonus, now that I have learned where to find the bolt serial number, it turns out that my No1 mk3* has a matching bolt, which I thought it didin't. Pics coming, but gotta go to work now.

I am going to try to attach some pics to this message. Please don't refer me to a photography forum after you see them. Had a chance to try a few short range shots at a friends farm the other day. He had a bench rest set up with targets at 75 yards. Ran the back sight all the way down. First three shots all within 3 inches of center. I was surprised as I am probably a worse shot with a rifle than I am with a camera. Anyways... now the fun begins. Can it be restored? Attachment 29790Attachment 29791Attachment 29792Attachment 29793

That is not a No1 Mk111*
That is a No4Mk1T Yes it can be refurbed

If you are going to re-barrel it, then you'll need some hard learned advice before you set about it. Rebarrelling a No4T isn't quite as simple as the EMER says..................

If it was mine and If the barrel looks ok I would recrown to 11 degrees and leave as is as, it wouldnt look too much out of place I would guess your missing an inch , gather the bits you need and rebuild.

Bindi2 - I know it is a No4 Mk1T. Guess maybe one of my posts wasn't clear. I also have a no1 Mk3*. That has also been sporterized, (fore end cut down and front hand guard missing, but the bolt matches and the barrel is intact. Guess i should start another thread wwith pics on that one to see what I have. It was a freebie given to me by a friend many years ago. I think I have a pretty good idea what I need to put the no4T back together but definitely don't have the funds for the scope at this time. I have gathered from reading that there is more to restoring than just buying the pieces and slapping them together.

If that is 1205 on the butt, then it is a really old telescope from the WATSON stable

Not sure Peter but I wonder if the first digit could be a '6'or an '8'? The wood was obviously sanded, perhaps at the time it was sporterised. As everyone has said, it is restorable & well worth the effort of doing so...

Thanks for the pix.

ATB

I have 8205 recorded as living in England.

I can't make out the number on the butt for sure. It was sanded when they refinished it. I'm getting really interested in the markings. I keep finding more of them (benifit of 56 year old eyes. Surprises all the time). Tomorrow I will take the stock off and see what I find. Day off so I will try to experiment with lighting and see if I can get some good pics of them. Thanks for your interest.

A good machinist could cut, drill and sleeve the bayonet lugs from a shot out barrel on to the existing barrel to keep it looking correct. Just a thought.

If the shortened barrel is otherwise perfect, then that's a wise move there Brian.........., wise move indeed! From someone who has spent hours rebarrelling No4T's against a standard No4 that could be done in an hour!

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These are the pics I was able to get today.

I don't know why the pics posted twice. Sorry!

Nor do I.......... So many pics just block my computer up. Heaven knows what happens if you're out in the sticks and your computer isn't on high speed!

Just how old is that computer? The one from which I'm posting now is from 2003 and it does photos fine. It's pretty terrible in other ways, but it's just what's "issued".