No4 mk1 T ?

No.4 mk.1 T.. it is a curiosity to me for a couple of reasons.. to begin with it is a 1943 rifle with an odd serial number A17190. It is also marked M47C, TR. There is no T marking next to the ejector screw, the S is present for sight adjustment,S51 on butstock , also correct number on buttsocket, also a scope number on the top of stock along with cheek pad. The pads for the scope are still on it along with staked screws. Would love to get some insite to the serial#, and possiblity of it being an original sniper dispite no T on the rail. Thanks..
Almost forgot.. there is only one Enfield inspector stamp on the right side of the cocking piece on reciever...

It might be better if you actually ask specific questions Spitfire. It reads like you're not asking questions, but want answers after having made a statement - if that makes sense...... What do you want to know?

I guess I am wondering if the rifle was a reject? For the lack of the "T" on the frame, I mention the other observations to help those more knowledgeable than I to make that determination... Also, the serial # doesnt seem to match any resources I have on hand and was hopeing someone might have some insight on that. Thankyou for your time!

Take a closer look at the serial prefix! Are you sure its A1 and not AL?

A1, it is on the forend, mag, and bolt and ofcourse the left side of the socket. There are two # 1's in the serial and they are identical.. Thanks.

You would generally expect a 43 BSA to have a serial starting with an 'A' then a second letter, such as 'B', 'L', 'R', 'U' etc., followed by a four digit number. If your serial was AL... or AT.....& part of the second letter had been carelessly stamped, this would explain it. Often the serials are overstamped during subsequent service life; could the original number have been mis-read & then overstamped (or engraved) incorrectly??

I wouldn't worry about the lack of a receiver side-wall T on a 43 rifle. It's very common on original examples.

Could you provide us with a few photo's. Any one of a dozen or more posters on this forum will then be able to tell you if it is right or not...

ATB

I am having a hard time uploading the photos.. they appear to be too big. I will keep working on it. Obviously I am not a computer nerd a little to long in the tooth I guess.

Don't worry, you're in good company........I share your affliction!

serial pictures. took me a while!!

Looks like a re numbered bolt! Any chance of a picture of the Action side?

its brite from the flash, I am no photographer. the image in the gun is more representative. I will try a picture of the side..

In agreement for the replaced and renumbered bolt. The pads look OK. The serial number itself is odd. If it was originally lightly etched on, the one now visible could be a "radomly" assigned number applied during a maintenance visit.

Had though before the photos were done that they might be of Indian origin, but now I just don't know. It doesn't LOOK like an Indian rework. But...

Close up of LH butt socket:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6d680711-1.jpg

Looks to me like is's been re-numbered by a foreign Army somewhere. But the rest of it looks OK

The same number is in the wood stock inside the butt socket on the stock from H&H , also hand written in pencil under the cheek piece, and out on the end of the fore stock, I assumed it was original to the gun...Thankyou for the opinions! I didnt hear it was a rejected rifle so I may go on to the next step. I dont have alot of money and didnt want to spend the 1500$ or so for a scope for a rejected rifle...I can handle renumbered! Thanks agian! Best Regards

Well, it's odd. But it appears to have been that way for a long time. But the earlier the rifle, the more likely it is to see things that aren't "standard". What with a war on and all...

The rough finish on the butt socket doesn't seem in character with what little wood is showing. Need lots more detail to make any real conclusions. Five minutes "hands on" may turn into five days or more via internet! And still the hands-on viewing will be better.

Attachment 29784Attachment 29782Attachment 29783Thankyou!
Unfortunately, the most "weathered" part of the gun is the left side buttsocket.. most of the rest of the gun is in quite good shape! Including the wood which has turned a rich dark brown in the normal handling areas.. and a dark brown cheekrest... the finest enfield I have owned for appearance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spitfireblue

No.4 mk.1 T.. it is a curiosity to me for a couple of reasons.. to begin with it is a 1943 rifle with an odd serial number A17190. It is also marked M47C, TR. There is no T marking next to the ejector screw, ...

---

In the pic you have shown of the left side of the action there is definately a T, its very light though, perhaps the camera flash has shown it up btter than the naked eye??

A couple of other inconsistancies (at least one that would be in conjunction with another) present themselves on this particular rifle. They're/it's easy to "correct", so I won't immediately give details just yet. Lets see if anyone else notices the conundrum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BushyFromOz

In the pic you have shown of the left side of the action there is definately a T, its very light though, perhaps the camera flash has shown it up btter than the naked eye??

---

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1b39bc71-1.jpg

??? Yes??? Me no see um.

Could be my eyes and the darks pics, but it seems that the fore end, where wood meets metal, is not right. Too much wood and the curve drops off too soon before the metal...does that make sense?

I'm pleased you can't, 'cause neither can I, if he's referring to the large scratch crossing the vertical mark, it's the wrong format.
Two points, this area appears to have been linished, as can be seen by the burr marks at the very left edge of the photo, the area around the buttsocket that seems heavily stippled looks like it was created by heavy sand blasting.
I think a couple of better photo's showing a slightly larger area of both sides of the receiver and buttsocket may help. We are quite able to view and increase/decrease ourselves if we have photo's that are close enough not to bloom away on high magnification.

:move eek:

I was looking at it on a HD LCD screen and it seemes to have exacerbated the image a bit. On the machine im on now, it appears to be what you say it is, a scratch.

My bad

I did the best I could.. sorry for the wait I work weekends.

I still would claim that the original serial number is 7190 as on the barrel and on the butt, and it has somehow gained the A&1 prefix at some point in some workshop or another!

On the evidence presented by XL39, I'd be inclined to agree

As was mentioned earlier, it has been around a long time. Who knows?

Likewise, I'd agree with Peter & XL39E1. Several of the 4T's that came in the batch I bought 15 years ago had been renumbered, & many of them had had their serial numbers overstamped at some point during a refurb.

Was there an "Ownership" stamped into the metal other than British on your renumbered guns?
I have not near the experence with these that you folks have I am sure .. However , the guns I have seen that had reasonably fresh numbers on them (possibly renumbered) the metal had very obviously been cleaned up (no trace of old number) and in the case of the bolts , an area that had been ground away. Yes, a prefix possibly added but why?? I just find it hard to believe that all the numbers on this gun weren't there from its beginning with the exception of the "A1" since none of the metal seems to have been disturbed. Unfortunately the forend number just ahead of the 7190 has been brused and is of no help...What Fun!!! Thanks agian to all that participated!!

Spitfire, it'd take ages to explain how numbers can be recorded wrongly but believe me, I have seen it with my own eyes. Sten guns with the serial number as M-78 (the makers code for the magazine housing), No8 rifles as CR 390 (Ordnance part number) revolver YC258 as Y -6258 and even a No4T on all the paperwork as 132083 but after a recent overhaul, it is L-32058 - not even the same number! All it takes is some dozy arms storeman looking at the wrong or misstamped number to go whinging to the technical quartermaster and........... and........... There you have it

Not to mention an L42 in the no8 (t) telescopic sight testing program which got a new serial subsequently too!

Thankyou for that....The "human" factor is easily forgotton sometimes. The number has always been a curiosity to me and now I think I have the best resolution to that question! I must say , when you hear it from folks with your background it seems almost obvious.. Best regards and thankyou
Mr. Laidler. PrinzEugen

Spitfireblue, the rifles I came into had been in stiore within the UK for many years prior to being disposed of, so I suspect any renumbering (correctly or with errors) was probably done whilst in UK service. Peter's comments would seem to back this up.

Best.

Thankyou Roger. If you dont mind my asking do you still build scope mounts?

Yep, I still sell the reproduction No32 brackets & am currently awaiting a small batch of Whitehead mounts for the SMLE/Winchester A5.

Best.

Many thanks! I will try to catch you at my next opertunity! Regards..