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IMO the insistence on "rifle" is only USMC tradition and jargon, like "deck" for "floor." According to the dictionary definition, rifles qualify as guns, just as pistols do. It seems to be fading... in the "American Sniper" book by SEAL Chris Kyle just out, he uses gun all the time. I occasionally use "gun" in GCA Journal articles because rifle gets very repetitive.
And the Navy has always referred to them as "guns" on a ship. Big guns but guns :)
Once out of the military, I had to learn that civvies talk this way. They don't like you to call your favorite your weapon and they don't understand the discipline of calling it rifle or pistol. They just group them all together with guns. They won't be corrected, and I found it's not worth my time to argue about it.
agreed, it bugs me sometimes,..but i get lazy and call it a gun from time to time...i usually use the term weapon.. in my eyes...a gun is anything over .50 cal. and a rifle is a shoulder fired weapon under .50 cal..
what bugs me the most is the term clip.... example...i had a box of AR mags for sale at a local show...guy asked how much for the clips.??said what clips...i dont have any clips?
sure those M16 clips..so i pulled out a stripper clip and guide for the M16...said here ya go..i have a few more in a box under the table....he just looked dumbfounded.
i said, i have a few Magazines to load up with these clips if you like...and then smiled...
Sorta like if your address is 2005 Main Street, that's two-zero-zero-five.
I totally agree with you guys. It bugs the heck out of me when people use incorrect words either through laziness or lack of education.
I live in one of the biggest Navy ports in the world. The sailors here always took pride in referring to the Iowa-class battleship main battery as her long rifles, btw. ;)
Bob
They are all guns (ie. a device that propels a projectile by force of explosive) but they are then divided into families of various types (rifles, pistols, etc.). 'Pistols' may be further subdivided into pistols and revolvers. Everyone knows what a rifle is, and it is the terminology I prefer, even though I am a gunsmith!
I prefer "rifle" as well, but I'm not too strict about it. SEAL Chris Kyle holds the record for documented sniper kills (over 150) and at one point he left his weapon in the hide when they were being extracted. He realized "I had forgotten my gun..." and went back to retrieve it :)
Not only the Marine Corps uses the term "rifle" for a firearm such as the U.S. Rifle Cal. .30 M1, so does Webster. "RIFLE - A firearm with a rifled bore, designed to be fired from the shoulder. b. An artillary piece or Naval gun with such spiral grooves. ( by the way, is the use of the term "Naval gun" by Webster an oxymoron ? :D)
Shotguns are also "guns" not "rifles".
But I must admit, but not to my former D.I :yikes:., that I do find myself, on occasion, calling a rifle a gun, but when I do, I know I made a mistake. Semper Fi
I remember having to do pushups in the Army for not saying "weapon."
To avoid this 25 years later I still say weapon.
I prefer the term "firearm". Cannot be confused for anything else. Then you have the type. gary
"RIFLE - A firearm with a rifled bore, designed to be fired from the shoulder"
IMO, many of the terms we use are only intended to refine what weapon we mean under the overall word "gun." Pistol and revolver, for example, clarify what type of hand gun we are talking about, but they are still "guns." Strict definitions often have exceptions: a machine gun is rifled and a sub-machine gun is fired from the shoulder. On the other hand, the BAR is officially a machine rifle and the MP40 is a machine pistol. Oh well. I will continue to consider "rifle" proper, but occasionally use "gun" as generally accepted -- like "Garand." :)
Nope. An oxymoron is a contradiction in terms, e.g., "honest crook." "Naval gun" is a redundancy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe W
Did that a few times. I still refer to rifles as weapons or rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump70
Knew when I wrote that I should stay away from things I am bad at, like spelling and English. :red face: Thanks for getting me straight on that term.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Hartley
You were doing ok right up to this point, but fell down hard here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
This is absolutely untrue, a pistol is synonymous with a handgun, and includes a number of different types of actions. People have tried to create a differentiation between revolvers and other types of handguns (typically this involves calling a semiautomatic pistol a "pistol"...and a blank stare when you ask about a break action derringer, pepperbox, flintlock, etc), but it is a relatively new and completely wrong differentiation. Even the wording is rather bizarre "Pistols can be broken up into pistols and revolvers"...the fact that makes no sense should be an indication. If you logically parse that statement, you're saying that "pistols"="pistols and revolvers", meaning "pistols"="pistols and pistols and revolvers" which then rapidly degenerates to "pistols"="pistols and revolvers and pistols and revolvers and revolvers"...etc...etc...ad nauseum.
Since this thread is completely about definitions, it really needs to be corrected. Normally I wouldn't do so because there is a group of people in general which doesn't really understand this is wrong and they get quite militant about their misunderstanding so there's no particular need to abuse them with the truth, as it's generally harmless, and correcting them does nothing but antagonize since they are dead set in their misunderstanding.... but if you're going to jump in a thread about correct referencing of a particular type of firearm, I have to, sorry.
BTW, the reason for civilian referring (correctly) to "gun", of which rifles and pistols and cannon are subsets as pointed out above, rather than use the DI approved "weapon" is largely political. In the battle of rational thinking vs "gun control", it's politically better to just refer to a "gun" rather than a "weapon" as it creates less of a hysterical underwear soiling reaction by some people. Yes, it's silly and they shouldn't have that reaction, but they do vote and count the same as anyone here so if we can reduce their desire to go to the polls and try to make stupid laws, we probably should. It's important.
Carry on.
In the UK military a "gun" is an artillery piece.
In civvie street it is a shotgun. Many companies in the UK refer to themselves as "Gun and Rifle Makers".
Anything that isn't a revolver is a pistol. Sometimes a revolver is a pistol but mostly a revolver, depends on my mood. A rifle is a rifle, a shotgun a shotgun. All are weapons and can be referred to as such. Rarely I do say gun it depends on context. If you call anything a Gat, Deuce Deuce, Burner, Chopper, Four Fifth, Nine, or an Automatic, Heater, Problem solver, Toaster or any other street slang,,,rest assured I will ignore you.
The US Army always referred to rifles as "weapon". They dished out pushups too in the early 80's if you slipped up and called your weapon a gun!
Pistols are semi automatic and revolvers are self explanatory. Lump them all together as handguns.
I fell in love with the Colonial term for hand-held weapons a while back. In that period, by the very name they emphasized the most important part of a daily use weapon and the hardest to get right with current technology, the safety and ignition system. They called that portion of the weapon the "lock." The generic name of any hand-held weapon was a "firelock." Thus, the command given to the British soldiers to surrender their arms at the British surrender at the end of the Revolutionary War Battle of Yorktown and reported by the Colonial observers was, "Ground your firelocks!"
Firearms of all types have become so controversial that I've taken to labeling anything weapons-related that will be carried in a public place by this term. It has style and leave's 'em wondering... :madsmile:
Bob
When I was on the job and ordered (screamed/yelled), "drop the gun!", they always knew what I was talking about.
A gun is generic. A rifle, pistol, revolver, shotgun, BB gun, etc., is specific.
In 1959 if the DI heard you call your rifle a gun all hell broke loose. Push up's and maybe even KP duty or :bash: and to this day I never call a rifle a gun.
Dick
From memory I had heard that were called rifles or Rifled barrels and not guns I think it was on a vid with the 15" L-5 weaponry on the IOWA class they referred to which in WWII they stated would defeat the enemy. I would say the Yamato and an IOWA class would have been an interesting stoush the earlier mounting 18.1", some armour was 36" thick and each turret weighed as much as a large WWII destroyer. The A.P projectile weighed 1.46 tonnes Max range 40,050m Altitude 11,900m Flight time 98.60 sec
Yes had been told it is always a rifle the gun is for other stuff :yikes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarPig1976
Oh come on. . . how can you ignore someone who says “Chicago Typewriter” ?
I agree with the above posts by bonnie and woodsy. "GUN" is generic for firearms. That is why there are gun stores, gun safes, gun laws, gunsmiths, etc. Rifle, pistol, revolver, shotgun is descriptive as to type of gun.
Cus, if I don't the conversation may lead to a "New York reload"...:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by fn111557
In this part of a world it is absolutely forbidden (well, discouraged in the strongest possible terms) among licensed firearms owners to describe a firearm as a "Weapon" - weapons are for using on people; firearms are a sporting implement, tool, or piece of history for target shooting, hunting/pest control or collecting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump70
I remember very clearly one day being in a gun shop when someone who had just got their firearms licence came in and told the chap behind the counter he wanted to buy a weapon. The chap behind the counter told him straight up "Sorry mate, we don't sell weapons here. Plenty of guns for hunting and shooting targets, though."
As for the whole "rifle vs gun" thing - all firearms are guns. "Gun" is a perfectly acceptable catch-all term for all firearms, with further deliniation to Longarms (Rifles, Shotguns, Air Rifles, Muskets etc), and Handguns (Revolvers, Semi-automatics, Air Pistols, etc). "Pistol" is a synonym for "Handgun" and has nothing to do with the gun's action.
You fellas are dealing with a difficult forbidden subject situation so I can see the play on words. We do the same thing to a lesser degree. I have yet to visit a fun shop that sells "Assault rifles" but they do sell modern sporting rifles. I don't own any "High capacity magazines" but I do own standard capacity magazines. Every single firearm I own is or can be used as a weapon. It's an interesting view into different cultures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield
During Basic at Ft. Polk in 1967 the drill sergeants very pointedly made the distinction between weapons, rifles and guns. Later at the Ft. Sill Artillery school it was made even more clear. Very , almost crystalline, clear. To this day I cannot call a rifle or pistol a gun. Guns, unless it is a shotgun or machine gun, start at about 20mm. Everything else is a weapon, rifle, or pistol.
In the pre-WWII army, the rifle was referred to as the piece . My father, a veteran of the AEF in France during WWI always referred to the rifle as his piece.
To quote from:
Manual
for
noncommissioned officers and privates of Infantry of the Organized Militia and Volunteers of the United States
1914
"78. Being at order arms 1.Present, 2 Arms
With the right hand carry the piece in front of the center of the body, barrel to the rear and ventricle, grasp it with the left hand at the balance, forearm horizontal and resting the body. Grasp the small of the stock with the right hand. "
And so it goes through out the Manual of Arms
The same nomenclature is carried forward in the
Manual of Basic Training
and
Standards of Proficiency for the National Guard
Volume 1
1927
It was not uncommon during the 1960's to ask "Got your piece on you?" when asking if one was armed.
FWIW
"This is my rifle, this is my gun, this one's for killing and this one's for fun".
Screw the politically correct nonsense! :lol
I'm entwined in the actual terminology used on government paperwork frequently. It's Rifle, Pistol, Revolver, Shotgun and their respective approved abbreviations. Then there are machine guns, short barreled rifles and "any other weapon" or AOW's. The BATFE's own definition of an "assault rifle" is a SELECT FIRE weapon that fires an intermediate size cartridge. That's the correct definition since the introduction of the MP43/STG44 by the Germans during WWII. Unfortunately the media and unfriendly organizations and politicians have redefined the term and even folks who should know better fall into the jargon trap. It's sort of like calling the USA a democracy when it's really a constitutional republic. It makes me tired to hear politicians on both sides of the aisle use the term democracy in conjunction with the USA as originally designed. There is an agenda at play. Nuff' said. :)
That's the phrase that was drummed in to us at recruit training in the Australian Army and unless you liked doing 5 kilometre runs and a serious amount of push ups it stuck like glue.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
That is an accurate description of a rifle. Webster also has a separate description for a pistol. They also have a description of a revolver. That does not rule out the fact that all of them are also guns if you use the Webster description of a GUN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe W
I am with R. Lee Ermy
Oh well tried to post a link no luck. youtube "this is my rifle this is my gun"
Here you go HOH...
This Is My Rifle. This Is My Gun - YouTube
I quickly got sick of hearing that. Especially when the semi educated drill sgt would end it with: "and it would beheave you to remember it".Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY
Did you mean behoove?Quote:
Originally Posted by latigo 1
You missed the whole point. That is why I put the word in italics. Yes, behoove is the correct word. The "semi educated drill sergant" always said "beheave", while trying to instruct the troops in correct wording.:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
That would be called irony.
Bob
Yes. we had those too. Hard to understand some of my leaders that couldn't pronounce their words..."We're sending you on the motorman's course"..."The what?" "Oh, mortarman"...Quote:
Originally Posted by latigo 1
Police call at the range: "I want all you mens to pick up every round of unsuspended ammunition." :)
I was in the Coast Guard and when we went for weapons training and qualification I only heard the terms rifle, pistol and shotgun used. We fired the M-16, pump action shotgun and .45 ACP and later the 9mm Beretta. The older NCO's always used to correct us if we used the term "gun", their favorite mantra was "this is my rifle, this my gun...one is for fighting and one is for fun...." I am sure the older members here who were in the service are familiar with that refrain.
I must admit that I have called "handguns" guns, "shotguns" guns and even some "rifles" guns, but I have never called the U.S. Rifle Cal. .30 M1, a gun. Guess because it was drummed into my head close to 60 years ago, by Parris Island D.I.'s, that "this is my rifle", and I had better never call my RIFLE a GUN. Some of these D.I.'s may have been uneducated, but that may have been because they were on some pacific island or defending some hill in Korea, while others were getting there college degree.
In the Navy, our terminology differed a bit from the Army. Our destroyer's "big guns" referred to our 5 inch 54 which could put a shell over a small mountain range on the Ho Chi Min Trail 15 miles inland, firing at 45-50 rounds a minute (it was designed for 60 r/m, but jammed at that speed). These were dwarfed by the "really big guns" on the cruisers. I recall the first time on duty on the firing line when eight ships -- several cruisers, destroyers, and frigates -- let loose with "gun fire support" barrage almost simultaneously that sent a shock wave that shuddered our ship.
Never did I hear the gunner's mates refer to our "guns" as "rifles" -- the differentiating term was "small arms" meaning anything that could be carried by hand. And small arms, including BARs, M-1s, and 1911 45 ACPs, were kept in the "weapons locker." Any handgun was referred to as a pistol, probably harking back to the days when pistols were flintlocks. Anyone specializing in weaponry was a "gunners mate."
Despite all these references, I must put the greatest credence in the observation of the well respected, indefatigable Mae West: "Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"
"Pistols are semi automatic..."
Unless they are single-shot.
Hum, no wonder there's confusion -- "semi-automatic or single shot" -- wide disparity there! My flintlock pistol, my percussion dueling pistols, and my 1911 Colt are all pistols; but my Colt revolver isn't. Got it. Checking on Colt's website, they agree with you Patrick, stating: "Colt pistols have long represented the gold standard in magazine-fed semi-automatic handguns." But Samuel Colt, the inventor, described his creation as a “revolving pistol.” And if this doesn't confuse the layman, the NRA Firearms Sourcebook, defines a pistol as “a generic term for a hand-held firearm. Often used more specifically to refer to a single-shot, revolver or semi-automatic handgun.” And if a policeman orders an armed man wielding a revolver to "Drop your pistol!" and the armed man doesn't because he believes he's not carrying a pistol but a revolver, is the police officer justified in shooting the man for disobeying an order? Oh well, I guess any person could get confused with this imprecise distinction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
(BTW, I'm not disagreeing with you -- just having a little fun with words.)
This sums it up for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
If Samuel Colt confused me on pistols, I thought maybe I could get my brain unscrambled and on the right track with Oliver Winchester. Was I soon further perplexed. I pulled out my matched set of 30-30 Winchester Commemoratives. One box was labeled "Rifle" (defined by Winchester as having a 24" barrel). The other box was labeled "Carbine" (because its barrel was only 20" long -- like my Sharps Carbine with a 21" barrel, which no Sharps enthusiasts refers to as a "rifle," or my Enfield Jungle Carbine with an 18" barrel, which no Enfield enthusiast refers to as a "rifle" -- but they all have genuine "rifling"). Hell, Fire, and Damnation! No wonder the world is confused. I keep getting the image in my head of the Abbot & Costello routine "Who's on First?" At the end of the routine, Abbott squawks: "You finally got it right!" and a bewildered Costello cries: "I don't even know what I'm talking about!":madsmile:
BTW, if you really want to add to the confusion, please someone accurately define "ball ammunition." It can't refer to the bullet's shape, which is a pointed projectile. Olin Corp (owner of Winchester) says it refers to the shape of the powder grains. I've heard different sides of this definition and it has left me :madsmile:
This definitional stuff has been designed to confuse the most analytic engineer and mechanical genius. Just take the definition of "grains" when it comes to ammo (you'd better take this one with a lot of grains of salt). We all know that "grains" is a measure of weight (7000/pound). So a 175 grain cartridge refers to the weight of the bullet, right? Well, often yes, but sometimes no. My 30-30 refers to .30 caliber-with 30 grains of powder/propellant. But the 30-30 bullet is 150 grains. So my 30-06 for my Springfield must have 06 grains of propellant, right? Wrong, the "06" refers to the year 1906, when the cartridge was officially accepted by the US Army. Then my 45-70 ammo for my 1874 Sharps carbine must refer to 1870, right? Wrong, the "70" refers to the weight of the grains of powder/propellant while the 45-70 bullet weighs in at a hefty 300 grains. Something must be wrong with this picture, which seems designed to defeat all sense of logic as nuance overpowers logic. :madsmile:
Guess we just have to laugh or go mad!:D
The Mae West pistol quote was her very best one-liner, followed by "Too much of a good thing... is a good thing!: LOL
Speaking of guns...here's the USS Wisconsin (BB-64) getting lighter...
Took a sec to notice the shell in flight. The power is just awe inspiring.
Jim, this is an awesome example of what we in the Navy referred to simply as the "Big Guns" or cannons; no one thought of these as "rifles." To hear a salvo from a battleship with 16" guns is one of the most awesome sounds imaginable. In the photo above, just look at the water below the barrels from the shock wave. If you were anywhere near the guns on deck you'd have your eardrums shattered and your skin blown off. Range was 20 miles (over 30 km) from a 66 foot long barrel. Each turret of three guns weighed over 40 tons -- about the weight of TWO WWII destroyers (referred to as "tin cans.") The shells weighed as much as a small car filled with explosives.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I'd be curious to know what the math comes out to, total weight of one full salvo with all consumables...consumed.
I've heard it jokingly referred to as "shipping Volkswagens," referring to the shell's weight. Wiskey lives near me now. A little known factoid about her is that while operating off the Virginia Capes on May 6, 1956, she collided with DDE-510 Eaton and her bow was badly mangled. She was dry-docked at Norfolk Naval Shipyard (possibly dry dock No.4) and it was determined that the best solution was to transport by barge the entire bow sub-assembly of USS Kentucky, BB-66, which was on the ways at Newport News Shipbuilding, across the Elizabeth river and graft it onto Wisconsin. BB-66 was never completed but her bow lives on with the USS Wisconsin, BB-64, now a museum ship.* I love history.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Attachment 63595
Bob
* Eaton was nearly cut in half and her keel was severed. The actions of the first LT in tying the bow and stern together with her anchor chain and closing all water-tight doors saved her to be returned to action. The accident was blamed on negligence in the Eaton's Captain and he was relieved. Eaton had a long history or contact with other ships: a surfacing submarine, DD-839 Power, and finally the Wisconsin.
Now that's a "Big Gun". Makes my beloved M110 8" howitzer look like a popgun.
Jerry Liles
I was watching the Military History Channel on a program about bullets. It showed the USMC armorers preparing handloads for the USMC rifle teams. Each rifle had it's particular handload and the boxes were numbered on the label as GUN number 123456. I thought that the USMC never used the term Gun when referring to rifles.
This comment may be controversial to purists, but having been through 6 weeks of Marine book camp in Corpus Christi Texas and Little Creek Virginia as part of Naval Officer Training, I cannot recall the legalistic, politically correct distinctions about nomenclature others have stated. I seem to recall the term "gun" used generically over and over again in the Marine Corps and in the Navy. Everyone knew exactly what was called for when the drill sergeant barked: "clean your guns," or "strip your weapon."Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosine26
To go a step further, regarding the term "clip" in relation to the "magazine" of a 1911 Colt: My father referred to it as a "clip," my gunnery chief referred to it as a "clip," and no one got confused. One reason: on board a ship the "magazine" is the chamber that holds ammunition, not the device that feeds the ammunition. Thus, for a 1911, the "chamber" that holds ammunition is the pistol grip, and the "clip" was the device that feeds the ammunition. I watched several 1940's war movies on TCM in the last month and several times the device that held the cartridges of the 1911 was referred to as a "clip." Now, before someone goes ballistic about sacrilegious terminology, I pulled out my father's 1940 edition of the Blue Jacket's Manual, which is the bible of naval procedure. Lo and behold, all the technical verbage in the Blue Jacket's Manual refers to the "magazine" as the device that holds the .45ACP cartridge.
In a way the distinctions are like my crusty gunnery chief, Jerry Russell, used to quip: "It's like sex among water buffalo; nobody gives a **** except the water buffalo."
My father, who was a WWII veteran (army), always called all rifles "pieces", as in "pieces of ordnance". He also called all pistols and shotguns "pieces of ****"! He was a medical officer who was given some very through small arms training (post V-E Day) as preparation for Operation Olympic. Everything was "Garand-Garand-Garand"! Even the little M-1 carbine was looked upon with contempt.
Easy enough to figure out . The HE round was 1,900 lbs each times 9 = 17,100 . Add 6 x 110 lb bags of powder ( 660 lbs ) per gun = 5,940 lbs . Total would be 23,040 lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
The AP rounds are 2,700 lbs each times 9 = 24,300 lbs . Add in the 5,940 lbs of powder again and you get 30,240 lbs .
Of course you'd have to add in the weight of the 9 30-06 blanks that set them on their way , too , but I don't have the specs on those .
I also don't have the weight of the silk bags themselves or if the 110 lbs includes the bag .
Note , too , that there was a 305 lb reduced power powder loading and a 325 lb flashless powder loading that could also be used ( each still used the six silk bags per bang ) .
Chris