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Hello: I'm a new member to this forum but a long time collector. I'm slowly building a Lee Enfield collection and have recently purchased a BSA #1 Mk III commercial type (ie. no Royal cipher on right strap). I'd like to know the age of the piece but am having no luck so far with my references. The serial number is 53203 with no letter prefix. Does anyone out there have any idea how to date this gun? Thanks,
Ridolpho
Generally the BSA commercials are hard to date - BSA used all sorts of number sequences to give some sort of commercial secrecy to their output.
As it happens, you happen to have one of the few "known" batches. BSAs with 5xxxx numbers were a batch made for the Gulf States/Protectorates back in the 1930s - exact year currently unknown. Recently, someone bought all these rifles back from Bahrain and released them to the surplus trade. Your rifle probably has (a) a brass butt disk with a rack number in large font (b) a cut-off (c) a "narrow" pattern front piling swivel (d) dark - almost purple colour - walnut furniture. Most of the rifles ended up with a mismatched bolt (also in the 5xxxx range) as apparently these were delivered separately and not much effort was made to match them up.
IMHO, these are some of the best quality Enfields around: despite the wear they've had, they are nearly all unmodified since they left the BSA factory, and they exhibit the top-class materials, finish and fit typical of an inter-war commercial trade gun.
These two rifles are from the same batch:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...82363761-1.jpg
You described the rifle perfectly right down to the very dark walnut. Thanks very much for the reply and for including the photos. My bolt handle is a matching number to that on the reciever and barrel although the seller told me he suspected there had been a Birmingham re-fit at some point in it's life. In any case the barrel is in excellent shape and it looks like it will be a good shooter, possibly with a spare "Central" aperture sight installed.
The number on the bolt should look exactly like the number on the receiver, and the bolt should have the same blued finish with no sign of grinding.
These rifles were never rebuilt or refitted in service by the UK trade - all bolt renumbering has been done recently by owners.....
If you remove section of the top handguard to the rear of the back sight, in that area you should find the Birmingham Military Proof marks (Crowned BM & Crossed Sceptres). Within the sceptres will be a date code for when the rifle was Proofed. You may even find a year date applied by BSA.
If you remove the handguard, I'd love to know which letter is stamped above the scepters.
Also, where else on the rifle is the serial number (or any part of it) stamped?
Finally, is there anything marked on the top-right, flat part of the action where the bolt slides in (underneath the bolt handle)?
Thanks for posting.
This is the "Bahrain BSA" I have currently.
The "BNP" on the receiver ring and the bolthead are the "new" Birmingham proof applied since these rifles came back a few years ago. All of the rest of the marks, including the "BNP" on the barrel, appear to be original.
The initials around the sceptres appear to be (left to right) "H 9 D". Also appearing is the "BM" military view mark and the "R" mark for reproof.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...00769635-1.jpg
Barrels are numbered, and bear the BSA commercial mark:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...00769637-1.jpg
Rearsight also matched:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...00769638-1.jpg
Boltway is blank, less for a tiny military BSA inspection mark on the right lower edge:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...00769640-1.jpg
Bolts have matching numbers (well, they did have once....) in same font and strike as the receiver. Bolt also has BSA commercial mark:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...00769641-1.jpg
Bolthead appears to have a BSA military mark on it. Note the very limited overturn! The finish and fit on these rifles is, IMHO, the best of all SMLE production.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...00769643-1.jpg
Why do they have to be re-proofed Thunderbox? Is it something to do with re-importation or.........
Excellent feedback- thanks! Checked my notes: the crossed Sceptres have a clear "S" avove them but I could not see a date code as suggested by "Beerhunter". Per Jc5's question, the serial number is present on bolt handle, reciever, barrel, and sight. The one on the bolt looks kosher due to the presence of very nice milling marks. I couldn't see anything on the flat below the bolt other than a small "H" at the base of the bolt guide channel. Most of the markings are at the bottom of the barrel reiforce requiring removal of the forend which I didn't have time to do again today. When last I looked I noted the crossed Sceptres, lots of BSA view marks, a strange triangular/ crenulated shape with V & C directly above and right against the reciever the number 23.
Thanks to all for the very helpful comments.
Ridolpho
Ridolpho,
A few close up pics would be really helpful to my research.
Anyway, if there is an S above the crossed scepters, then it would have been proofed (originally) in 1937-8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
In their original form, the rifles do not have a proof mark on the bolthead (just an inspection mark and - sometimes - a very faint crossed pennant), and the bolt-body only bears the military "BM" underneath the bolt knob. As the Proof Notes issues by the proof houses are vague and ambiguous over what exactly constitutes valid civilian proof, most importers, auctioneers and dealers err on the side of caution and have the rifles re-proofed so that a recognisable "BNP"/"CP" appears on each component.
Attachment 30655Attachment 30654Jc5 and others. Finally took a couple of shots of the markings under the barrel knox-form. I now fully appreciate the beautiful closeups I see on the forum- it's tough! The two photos show the crossed-sceptres and #23 immediately adjoining the reciever as well as the crenulaed triangular marking (with #6 on top).
Ridolpho,
Thanks for the close-ups. But can you please snap some photos from just a bit farther away? Your extreme close-ups shows the markings in excellent detail, but they are so close that I cannot tell exactly where on the barrel they are, or how the two photos are related to each other.
Thanks!
A bit more info on proof marks (including the military BM mark)
Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks
Even that source does not appear to be precisely accurate. E.g.:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
- "BM" was obviously used on the barrel, receiver, bolt and quite often the bolt-head.
- "Crown over R" is likewise clearly not only related to a "black powder to nitro" reproof. It appears on many BSA commercial rifles and appears to indicate a double proof at the time of manufacture - ie civilian marks applied in addition to military proof.
That chart has been "lifted" from the standard work by Wirnsberger but lacks the text that goes with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
The two BM marks (I have never seen the Gunmakers mark on a firearm) were introduced in 1916 for all military arms up to and including .315 and modified to include all calibres of firearms for military use in 1925.
It is my opinion that any firearm bearing either of the BMs is "in Proof" because it has been proofed by one of the two Statutory Proof Houses - which is all that is required in law. The Proof of non-military firearms would have been exactly the same but they would have been marked differently. However as Thunderbox says, some dealers are wary that they may have to test that in court and so you will see rifles that have been "double proofed".
Jc5: Will upload another photo that shows where these marks are but may have to wait until weekend. If you look at the two on the previous post, the photo on the right shows the edge of the reciever at the extreme right side so left is toward the muzzle. At approx. 7 o-clock you can see the triangualr shape that is detailed in the other photo. On that photo the #6 is toward the reciever. Also, both photos are of the bottom side of the barrel. Thanks,
Ridolpho
I just love how easily some people just "lift" the hard work of others and then pass it off as their own on the web. Whoever runs that site should be ashamed. I love how they had the nerve to "copyright" the page at the bottom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
Thanks for all the info in this thread guys.
It has helped me figure out that the #1MkIII receiver that I just picked up is most likely a commercial BSA.
The question remains as to when it was made as there are very few markings on it.
Ridolpho, thanks for the additional photos. Can you please post one of the left side of the action? Something looks unusual about the safety lever. Also, maybe a photo of the front of the action similar to the pics that Thunderbox posted earlier?
Tbolt, we'd love to help date your commercial BSA, but it might be less confusing if you started a new thread and put up a some photos. I think it's hard to nail down one owner's rifle if other people start posting pics of their rifles in the thread. We can try to date it from proof marks and comparison to other rifles.
Roger that, will take photos, and start new thread when I get home from work this afternoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jc5
Hi Ridolpha, I purcased a BSA commercials Bahrain SMLE last year Number 58278 and the wood is a very dark walnut and almost in un-used condtion. I was told by my RFD it dates to 1932 but who knows !.
I imported a 20 of the Bahrain issue rifles several years ago. There are still a few here. They're all commercial BSA in a specific 58xxx-59xxx serial range as decribed by Paul. I was told they were produced in the early 30's too. The rifles themselves appear to have seen more drill and ceremony than firing because all but a couple in near new condition had the buttplate screws worn heavily. Fortunately most have matching bolts and the barrels are excellent so they are wonderful shooters.
Take a look under the top handguard for a date code.Quote:
Originally Posted by paulpanagi
Attachment 31030Attachment 31031Jc5: Sorry for the delay- need to lose the day job!
No, keep the day job! They're hard to find these days!