No 8 Rifle

I have a No 8 rifle with the serial number W53. It was made by Fazakerley in 1951.
I have been told it was either a trials rifle or one of a batch made for an officer training school.
As the No 8 rifle was approved in 1948 the trials rifle explanation cannot be correct. If you assume the serial numbers started at W1 and my one was the last one made, that would make 53 rifles, which sounds like a lot of guns for a training school.
Has anyone seen another W serial number No 8 or can offer any information on this rifle?
Thanks.

I have been an Armourer since 1963 and while I ain't seen them all, I have seen one or two and never seen a factory serial number other than the usual A or DA or the UE68A type serial number range. However, I have seen them recorded as anything that might look remotely like a number that is on the butt socket so just maybe..................., but don't hold your breath!

A photo would help

I've got "W4" at the moment. Story that I hear passed around (was it repeated on this forum?) is that these were built at Woolwich.


My rifle is a rather crude rebuild, so most of the provenance is lost. The butt socket carries "F50/ CR324", but in a different font/age to the sidewall engraving.

It seemed to me that perhaps these No8s were built by someone in the civilian from No5 receivers. However there is no trace of a previous set of markings, and the "W4", whilst suspiciously "clean" compared to the stamped butt socket marks, does appear to be electro-pencilled rather than engraved.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...00836571-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...00836570-1.jpg

Yep, you can't get any clearer than that. But it's definately a Fazakerley 1950 ex No5 body. But so far as small arms, Woolwich was just another Base workshop albeit a very small one and civilianised much earlier than occurred later to the big REME workshops - as opposed to a small arms manufacturer. Interesting.........

We did have stripped down No8's converted into sub calibre adaptors for some of the tank 120mm main armaments but thet retained the usual serial numbers. Not the greatest success as I recall

The story(ies) I've heard say that Woolwich built both No5s and various SRb No4/ 7.62mm target rifles for military and works clubs in LONDIST and Woolwich garrison. I have seen one or two full-bore target rifles around with a Wxx rack number stamped into the wood - again allegedly from a Woolwich garrison shooting club.

I suppose its feasible, given that Woolwich would have had loads of parts available, and that all of these rifles would be simple screw-together jobs and don't involve any actual manufacturing processes.

Good point Thunderbox, but on the basis that Woolwich Base Workshop was the same as, say, Catterick or Aldershot or Warminster, then they wouldn't have access through the stores system of the 'master component', in this case, the body as this part was never available through the Ordnance system. The strict non-availability of the master component prevented the manufacture of small arms by anyone. If they were, you could end up with a situation like the unnumbered/unaccountable LB rifles. Standard No8 rifles were available to any unit. Maybe the W serial number No8's deserve a bit more investigation but I doubt that they were made up by a REME workshop for reasons I've given. Mind you, there could be quite a few out there if we've got number 4 and 53 already!

I can't see any unit being allocated 50+ No8's for any reason so that would eliminate all Army units as they'd be allocated from Ordnance in any case. Even the big training regiments that I can recall would only have 12 or so. I think that they were allocated for a project. Clearly there is no previous designation or number under the W mark.

The big Base Workshops would manage units 'private' stockholdings (we called it the PRI stores), such as shooting team No4's and especially Army/Navy/RAF Cadet forces who had 'private'/usually ex WD weapons such as my sons old school who had 6 or so telescope-less No4T's that were used as accurate target rifles with PH5C sights by the shooting team............. But I'm going on a bit!

Try as I might I cannot post pictures even if I follow the tutorial.
My rifle is very neatly engraved on the action side wall ".22 No8 MK1" with the number "W53" directly under it. On the butt socket it is stamped "F51 CR324"

I will keep trying with the pictures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I can't see any unit being allocated 50+ No8's for any reason so that would eliminate all Army units as they'd be allocated from Ordnance in any case. Even the big training regiments that I can recall would only have 12 or so. I think that they were allocated for a project. Clearly there is no previous designation or number under the W mark.

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50+ would be the sort of batch size you might get for a sub-cal trainer, given the limited number of ranges/units that such a system would be scaled for. If the barrelled receivers were prepared for a sub-cal system that subsequently got cancelled (e.g. the main weapon became obsolete or the sub cal was thought to be pointless), that might explain why there is no Mark Number applied, nor any appearance in EMERs or anyone's memory. Candidates might be 105mm (tank), Mobat/Conbat/Wombat, 105mm Pack/105mm Light Gun (tank action role), etc.

If a few more "W" rifles turn up, it might be possible to deduce something from their appearance. E.g. if they've all obviously been restocked, then that might be an indication that they left service as barrelled actions only.

Page 567 TLE
"Shirley's .22 No.8 MkI trainers of 1950-52 are usually 'A' prefixed to a five-digit number, although a sample at the pattern room is serial numbered W16."

Now that's stirred the pot.

Was this one made at Enfield?

It looks like the original number /designation has been linished off and re-engraved during the FTR by Enfield. Not all Enfield was deemed to be FTR as some what we called 'dues out work' (or 'backing-up work') was turned over to Enfield who took this work on during slack times in order to keep the workforce occupied. This feature is mentioned in the Apprentices books

I'd guess that it was originally a BSA or Faz rifle

Attachment 30648

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 303 Collector

Try as I might I cannot post pictures even if I follow the tutorial.
My rifle is very neatly engraved on the action side wall ".22 No8 MK1" with the number "W53" directly under it. On the butt socket it is stamped "F51 CR324"

I will keep trying with the pictures.

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303 Collector asked me to post a picture of his rather nice No 8 so here it is.

Yep, a nice one but mysterious number sequence. I expect that we'll get to the bottom of it sooner or later. It's a fazakerley body and the condition of just that part leads me to believe that it's lead a sheltered life.

Incidentally I did a VAOS search of W serial numbers against a designation in stock and it doesn't come up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I'd guess that it was originally a BSA or Faz rifle

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The D has been applied over an F. Does that help to limit the choice?

That was a pretty astute observation Pat........ how did you notice that or are my old eyes failing me. In any case, Faz had been well closed by 1969

Just spoken to a friend on the phone and he has W56. He was told they were a batch sent
to Woolwich for a target shootin team? He has seen serial numbers in the W sixties.

It begs the question of just HOW big was the target shooting team or teams? And why would they qualify for a special issue? I just feel that W for Woolwich is a red herring. After all, the W would indicate Weedon Ordnance Depot shooting club or the Trials wing at the School of Infantry Warminster or Wilshire Police. The majority of the actual Woolwich Garrison was Army, including the Base Workshops, that was relatively small by Base Workshop standards and they'd just get the run of issue kit. I just recall that in our workshops we had certain rifles (No4T's and L42's for example) that were part of the workshop equipment, just for the testing of other kit, such as telescopes. Other experimental units had rifles issued to test ammunition or 'pyrotechnics' or signal pistols to use as gas dischargers etc etc but it all followed the usual pattern and was issued from Ordnance.

I just have a gut feeling that these W No8's were contracted from the old Ministry of Supply, from the Fazakerley factory, with War Department (as they all were in the early 50's) approval for some other Government or overseas department..............

But someone will come up with the answer
But the Woolwich Garrison shooting team just doesn't ring any bells somehow. Can you imagine it, the club secretary, Major Smithers phoning up his old school pal pal at the Ministry of Supply saying
'...... I say, is that you Stinky Beardmore me old chum....... I need 70 of those new No8 rifles for the Woolwich shooting club. Can you help?
'....Fraid not Spotty, there's a huge demand from the Army and now those stinkers in the RAF want some as well........'
'That may's be so Stinky, but unless you send me 50 No8's down, especially numbered from W 1 to 71 by next week, I'll have to tell all and sundry in the Mess about you and that rotter 'Winker' Wainwright at the back of the school pavillion...... and he wasn't the only sly *** that you were having either........
Ok, Ok, Spotty, I'll have them with you by Monday. Mums the word and I won't mention you and matrons daughter.

I just don't think things worked like that even then.........

Well I never, not one but two of them! Both W4 & W53 have been through my hands, albeit some years ago. I bought a total of nine incomplete No8's between 1997 & 2003 from two seperate sources. I bought them as a long term restoration project, though eventually decided I was never going to get round to rebuilding most of them within a reasonable time period, so sold eight of the nine to a pair of dealers from the Kent/E Sussex area who specialise in Enfield rifles & who are well known on this forum. They completed & sold them on, at least to the best of my knowledge. The one which did not go to them was W53 as I did complete that one & sell it to a pal in my club. He subsequently stopped shooting about 5 years ago after a heart attack & gave me all of his rifles (including W53) to sell on. It went to a dealer in the Warwick area, very close to the Wedgenock National Black Powder Centre.

I'm afraid this doesn't shed any light on where the W prefix comes from, but it surprised me if nothing else!