Please HELP National Match Garand Mess. Hope I Didnt Lose on This One. HELP

Hi you all. I bought a beautiful National Match M-1 garand. For this rifle i paid $1600 and I purchased it from a knowlegable man. I got it apart and found some odd things. I will make a list below. This rifle is exceptionally nice. The trigger has been worked to 4.6 pounds. It has won several matches and will shoot in one hole at 100 yards. I know for a fact that it has been professionally set up for CMP competition. Now the troubles:

Serial no. 1656494 This is early-mid WW2. Springfield receiver of coarse

Stock is unmarked, walnut and very nice. It is glass bedded with the old brown material used years ago. This is done so well you can read the receiver numbers in the bedding. Obviously a professional job. Also, the stock and handguards have "LO 494" or maybe "LD 494" written inside in white chalk. 494 is last 3 numbers of the rifles s/n. the but plate is a bit small on the stock. Front barrel band faintly marked NM.

Trigger group marked "494" in white chalk on left side and also on the inside of the floor plate. Drawing no. 6528290-SA. No other markings.

Action: Front sight correct NM 062. Rear site NM marked on arperture/elevation ramp, but none on sight ear. also windage dial is unmarked but it is 1/2 MOA per click. (8 clicks per revolution. Hooded arpeture marked .520.

Barrel is a replacement marked (stamped) "NM" in the usual place on the left side of the bbl. Under the op-rod is marked "Geneseo Ill. 30/06" slightly forward is "SS" and that is all.
receiver drawing no. D 28291 27 heat lot no "041B diamond"

Bolt D28287-12SA
RE5B

So, this is a really nice rifle, but:
1. Is it a real armory made National Match or a later assembled rifle
2. What is it worth
3. How desireable is this old rifle?

Thank you all for this forum and your help. Thanks.

Shane

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Originally Posted by t120tr6r

Hi you all. I bought a beautiful National Match M-1 garand. For this rifle i paid $1600 and I purchased it from a knowlegable man. I got it apart and found some odd things. I will make a list below. This rifle is exceptionally nice. The trigger has been worked to 4.6 pounds. It has won several matches and will shoot in one hole at 100 yards. I know for a fact that it has been professionally set up for CMP competition. Now the troubles:

Serial no. 1656494 This is early-mid WW2. Springfield receiver of coarse

Stock is unmarked, walnut and very nice. It is glass bedded with the old brown material used years ago. This is done so well you can read the receiver numbers in the bedding. Obviously a professional job. Also, the stock and handguards have "LO 494" or maybe "LD 494" written inside in white chalk. 494 is last 3 numbers of the rifles s/n. the but plate is a bit small on the stock. Front barrel band faintly marked NM.

Trigger group marked "494" in white chalk on left side and also on the inside of the floor plate. Drawing no. 6528290-SA. No other markings.

Action: Front sight correct NM 062. Rear site NM marked on arperture/elevation ramp, but none on sight ear. also windage dial is unmarked but it is 1/2 MOA per click. (8 clicks per revolution. Hooded arpeture marked .520.

Barrel is a replacement marked (stamped) "NM" in the usual place on the left side of the bbl. Under the op-rod is marked "Geneseo Ill. 30/06" slightly forward is "SS" and that is all.
receiver drawing no. D 28291 27 heat lot no "041B diamond"

Bolt D28287-12SA
RE5B

So, this is a really nice rifle, but:
1. Is it a real armory made National Match or a later assembled rifle
2. What is it worth
3. How desireable is this old rifle?

Thank you all for this forum and your help. Thanks.

Shane

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Sorry, Shane.
#1. What you have is a WWII era reciever that SAI rebarreled, they used too provide this service if you bought there barrel and sent in your barreled action and stripped bolt they would install it and set the headspace, I believe that they would also refinnish you rifle for a fair price at the time.
#2. with the commercial barrel its worth the sum of its parts.
#3. with the commercial barrel there is no collector interest/value.
What its worth and how desireable are hard too answer without seeing pic's, but a clean shooter M1 in a nice stock and fresh barrel about $800

Done with the bad news, the good news is that I'm sure its a better than avg. shooter and will give years of shooting fun, another option is too find a late postwar barrel if your looking too keep it USGI or a Criterion barrel, they can be found for fair prices and when the current barrel is shot out replace it.

FWIW my .02

Even if it was an original USGI SA NM at one time, it is not original anymore. More likely it is an SA Inc NM rifle as Phil posted above. As far as its real world value, you probaby overpaid a bit. But then if you had a good garandsmith build you one, with properly bedded stock etc, you would most likely spend almost as much. The real value is in how it shoots. If its a real tackdriver, and you plan on competing with it, then you got a great rifle for a fair price. If you bought it strictly for collector appeal, well, it has little. It's all in how you look at it. When it comes to NM rifle though, always do thorough research BEFORE you buy. If you lose the deal during the time it takes you to check it out, no big deal, another will come along soon enough. You should know that EVERYONE here has made a less than desirable purchase, many of us have done it more than once, so your not alone. Just be thankful that you now have the internet as a research tool. It was'nt always like that years ago.

Hey all. I called SA today and got lots more info: Acording to Springfield armory, Thisis indeed an original National Match rifle. In 1989 is was sent to SA for a rebuild. SA sent the rifle to a man in Georgia named Glenn Nelson. Aparently he was a very skilled gunsmith and armorer. He replaced the barrel with a first quality barrel made by Douglas, added a new "heavy" stock and oil finishes it. Also it was "match accurised" including bedding the stock.
So, does this info make this rifle any more desirable. How about value. I still think I over paid. Thanks again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t120tr6r

Hey all. I called SA today and got lots more info: Acording to Springfield armory, Thisis indeed an original National Match rifle. In 1989 is was sent to SA for a rebuild. SA sent the rifle to a man in Georgia named Glenn Nelson. Aparently he was a very skilled gunsmith and armorer. He replaced the barrel with a first quality barrel made by Douglas, added a new "heavy" stock and oil finishes it. Also it was "match accurised" including bedding the stock.
So, does this info make this rifle any more desirable. How about value. I still think I over paid. Thanks again.

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Your rifle was originaly built as a std infantry M1 Garand durring WWII, there were no National Matches durring the war, the National Matches did not resume untell 1946, after your rifle was originaly made. Years later a shooter wanted a M1 Garand and could have picked one up thru the DCM or from a gunshow. After the original sale the rifle could have changed owners many times, However someone in 1989 sent the M1 to SAI for a NM upgrade, SAI then sent the rifle too Glenn Nelson a former USAMTU smith. Glenn Nelson rebuilt the rifle too National Match specs and sent it too SAI and from SAI too its rightfull owner.

Yes, having a Glenn Nelson tuned rifle does add too the rifles value, condition is still everything. For a nice clean rifle, good refinnish, clean muzzle, low T/E and M/E, soild bedding, good draw preasure on triggerguard closing, clean breaking trigger job, tight fitting gas cylinder. well you get the Idea, $1200. is a fair price.

The Service Rifle matches were scheduled to resume after the war, but there was a problem integrating the 8-shot M1 with the NM course of fire designed for the 5-shot '03 Springfield. One or the other would be disadvantaged. This dragged on until the Korean War broke and postponed them further. They finally resumed in 1953.

I have a bit of a problem with Nelson's stamping NM at the front like an SA NM M1. What's that all about if it isn't intended to fool somebody?

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

The Service Rifle matches were scheduled to resume after the war, but there was a problem integrating the 8-shot M1 with the NM course of fire designed for the 5-shot '03 Springfield. One or the other would be disadvantaged. This dragged on until the Korean War broke and postponed them further. They finally resumed in 1953.

I have a bit of a problem with Nelson's stamping NM at the front like an SA NM M1. What's that all about if it isn't intended to fool somebody?

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Maybe it wasn't Glenn Nelson that stamped the "NM" on the barrel. It may have been SA Inc., after it was returned to them.

$1200-$1500 is about what you'd expect to pay to get a Garand set up for the National Matches. Remember, Garands and M1As dominated Camp Perry for quite some time, and still do very well there. A single hole at 100 yds would be a nice setup indeed.

As a historical WW2 collector piece, your rifle bears about the same resemblance to an original Garand as a P-51 set up for the Reno air races does to a mustang taking off from an airfield in England in 1944. Thing is, both versions are beautiful examples of classic machinery at its finest. What happened to that rifle after the war is as much a part of its history as what it went through in it's first 2 1/2 years of existence, and it sure as hell doesn't mean it's worthless.

Who was it who said the only interesting rifles are accurate rifles?

I don't think anyone is faking anything with Geneseo ILL stamped into the barrel, I would like too know what all the stampings and there style in the barrel. NM and SS Geneseo ILL. doesn't discribe much is it a standard weight or heavy weight barrel this will narrow down who made the barrel.

In this case Pic's would really help.

I have a Glenn Nelson build match M1A from 1982. It has a replacement barrel marked GN - 82. So that is how the M1A barrels were marked at least some of them. Validated this through an old M1A smith named 'Hook' Boutin who went through the rifle for me. 'Hook' trained Glenn in the early days.
VAlue is tough on the Garand. If I wanted a great shooter and was willing to spend $1500, I would build a rifle (actually have done that) with a new Kreiger or Douglass barrel.
Obviously it's not an original or even correct NM anymore.
For me there would be some value in having a Nelson build Garand especially since I have the M1A but it would only be a small premium.

hey all, Iwant to answer some questions asn best I can. SA said this was indeed a NM rifle when they received it, and that is why NM was restamped on the new barrel. This rifle was defenitley sent to Nelson Custom Guns in Ga. and the word "HOOK" is written in white chalk? inside the stock along with the last 3 digits of the rifles s/n. Barrel is a Douglas but later Nelson used his own barrels this is why your barrel is marked GN. mine is marked SA. Who is this Hook fellow who wrote his name in my stock? Thanks all and take care.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t120tr6r

SA said this was indeed a NM rifle when they received it, and that is why NM was restamped on the new barrel.

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That's kind of like stamping a SA/GHS cartouche on a post war stock because the "original" stock on the rifle was a SA/GHS. Just my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the rifle, just the SA Inc. practice of inscribing "NM" on the barrel.

Eieter SAI or Mr. Nelson also marked barrels "UM" for Ultra Match. Barrel markings are in the same spot as NM on mine. Aparently the Ultra Match was a higher level rifle. I am still reasearching and learning so please bear with me. Thanks.

And on my AR is SUM (Super Ultra Match)

Joe, I have to agree with you on how the rifle barrel has been stamped. In addition, if it was indeed an original National Match M1 rifle, SAI destroyed any and all value by having it "redone".

Don't get me wrong, it is still a valuable rifle being built by Nelson but not like if it were in it's original NM configuration. $1400.00 to $1600.00 IMHO however photos are a must!

Hook Boutin, a legenary Service Rifle armorer. He's still building rifles in I believe Arkansas even though he must be in his 70's-80s. Think he call's his shop Old Corps Armory. The street price to build a NM Garand is anywhere from 2500-3500 dollars for a ground up build. If you intend to shoot it as a serious competition rifle ( If it's been reworked by SAI it's a shooter so shoot it) take it to a gunsmith who specializes in Service Rifles and have it gone through. They'll gauge everything, rebed, recut crown if required, check trigger for sear engagement, unitize the handguards,etc... If your barrel is good it won't be very expensive and the rifle will shoot to the level of the barrel for accuracy as I don't know how hard you hold or how many rounds are on the barrel. Isaac McCaskell (Cassatt Gunsmithing) in South Carolina, Fulton Armory in MD, Dean's Gun Restorations TN, Match Service Works Ronnie Morris TN, to name a few. Those smiths you can ship to, some of the older guys are only taking work if you can drop it off. Doc McCoy passed away and Clint Fowler just retired. So my opinion is your ahead at $600 and even if you put another $400 into it (if the barrel is good. Good=MOA or better at 600yds) your still ahead for a NM competition rifle, not a collectable rifle. It isn't a low number Winchester with Keystone springs and all or Gas Trap. Hope this helps.

Tom

Old Corps Weaponry

Licensee Name: Beaver, Roland
1127 Hwy 64 E
Bald Knob, AR 72010


Gerald "Hook" Boutin's - Hook. He's still at the same location in Bremen, GA and can be found in the white pages online as Gerald Boutin.(as of 4-6-11)
Boutin, Gerald J.

OOP's thanks for the correction, got Hook and Roland turned around in my head. Insert Roland where Hook is and the high level of esteem within the competition community is the same for both.

Tom

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Originally Posted by t120tr6r

It is glass bedded with the old brown material used years ago. This is done so well you can read the receiver numbers in the bedding. Obviously a professional job.

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If that glass bedding is still in great shape, and that rifle shoots as good as you say, you should refrain from taking the action out of that stock anymore than absolutely nessessarry. You don't want a good glass job worn down be field stripping, and isn't needed on a National Match rifle/competition shooter. Also when you do clean it good, just remember to rotate that rifle upside down in your cleaning cradle too. Those harsh chemicals are bad on Glass bedded rifles and can soften it up if you get it all down in there. So let that stuff run out the upsidedown action. That's the best advice I can give for a NM rifle thats glass bedded. You shouldn't have any trouble with it it if you just don't keep taking it out. Plus if you meet any competition shooters at the range, and show them up with that good shooter, you may have offers on it yet, so don't be discouraged just from a collecting point of view. Accuracy Matters to some a lot more when they turn thier scores in to the NRA after a match.

OK, So from what I understand an "Original" NM Garand could be built on a WWII Receiver. I read in a recent Rifleman Article: "Type 2 National Match rifles can, conceivably, have receivers predating World War II to the latest receivers made (6.1 million serial-number range)." To me that means it could have been a NM rifle when SAI got it. Is that correct?
My issue is with the bedding description. It sounds like the bedding runs down inside the stock alongside the receiver. Is that correct for a Garand? I know it's correct for an M1A... But a Garand? It's my understanding that the bedding on "original" NM stocks was only in thin slots that are where the receiver rests on top, and where the trigger housing rests on the bottom. These stocks were "tight" fitting and had very even and tight grain to begin with. (I happen to have one). Or is that incorrect?... I'm still learning about Garands. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Nodda Duma

...Who was it who said the only interesting rifles are accurate rifles?

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Townsend Whelan.

Sounds like a nice shooter, but NM? No. Story gun and likely stands on its own merits. But a NM? No.

"do thorough research BEFORE you buy"

Boy, is that good advice! We see it all the time -- a guy buys an M1C, THEN does the due diligence, finds out it has serious problems, gets mad, usually says we don't know what we're talking about, spins some fantastic tale of how it could be real if this, if that. Do the research BEFORE -- hear that? -- BEFORE you buy.

Some of you all seen to feel as though I have committed a crime by owning this rifle. Although I kinda like it and it is an exceptionally nice rifle, it seems I must throw it in the river because it is not up to your lofty standards. If you wish I will be happy to send you a sighed certification that states boldly that. Your stuff is way better than mine. Thanks for al the info, accusations and judgement. I wish you all well.

For the kind few who honestly helped, thank you very much and you have been a great help. I hope one day to be able to return the favor. Take care

Ummm..... I just read through this thread again, and my feeling is that most folks said that you had a nice rifle. Will probably shoot tiny groups. Please be happy with it and have fun shooting.

I haven't posted before as I am not an NM expert. I don't feel that people offering advice to research before buying, or informing you that you likely don't have an NM rifle, but wishing you well and that your rifle shoots well and brings you happiness are not being nice or helpful. I encourage you to reread the thread. No one is denigrating your rifle. Again, please be happy with it and have fun shooting.

you have a NICE shooter/match rifle with ZERO historical or collector value.

my only concern with this thread is the valuations. If you took this rifle to ANY large 500-1000+ table gunshow anywhere is the USA, dealers would not give you more than 600-800 bucks ABSOLUTELY tops. Match rifles like this cost WAY more to make up (especially with 400 dollar Douglas/Krieger match barrels) than they will ever sell for. 1000 bucks is what you might get selling this rifle on this forum.

There are CMP JCG Matches that are CMP Sanctioned events (among others). Your rifle is not authorized for this type of match, but is fine and dandy for others (albeit not an ideal choice).

http://www.odcmp.com/competitions/rulebook.pdf

You do have a very nice Match rifle there, for sure. You did over-pay for it, but that is not a crime I am aware of. Use it, enjoy it, good luck.