Questions On Two Web Belts

Hi! I'm fairly new to the forum, main interest is Garands and military shotguns. However, I recently purchased a 1918 made Colt Model 1911, an impulse buy in a local shop (pistol is still in jail), and have been looking into getting a web belt outfit to make it a comfy home. I just got two belts, one of which I'm hoping is WWI, but am having doubts, so would like to ask about it here. A photo is below, note that it is a medium tan in color, no green hue as this shot shows:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...WebBelt1-1.jpg

Only one end is adjustable, the other end has the female half of the buckle permanently sewn in. The buckle parts are a gray, non-magnetic metal. The riveted piece on the adjustable end of the belt is black painted steel, while the narrow band next to it is plain steel, showing rust. The rivets are all copper. There is no maker name that I can find.

The tan color made me think WWI, but the steel parts instead of copper indicate maybe post-WWII or repro? Any expert help in identifying the date and possibly maker would be appreciated!

I also got at the same time another belt that I assumed is WWII, color is green and all metal parts are copper. The problem is that the female half of the buckle is missing. Pic below:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...WebBelt2-1.jpg

Might anyone know of a source for just the missing buckle half? TIA!

Welcome to the site!

Keep in mind there were many foreign belts that looked a lot like the US web pistol belt. If I had a great 1911 (They're ALL great!), I would hold out for a nice original belt that still had maker markings and the 'US' stamped on the front - They made a huge number of these belts and you can often find them in mint, unissued condition with a good 'US' still stamped on the front-left and maker marks and date inside for a very reasonable price (Under $50, and sometimes well under $50)

You could also hold out for a WWI belt and gear, but it takes a little longer sometimes. Of note, many times WWI web gear sells for the same as WWII or even less. Also, mixing WWI and WWII gear is just fine because it was done all the time in WWII, just as it was common for the military to use 1911's in WWII.

To make a basic set, I'd get a belt, holster, canteen, ammo pouch, and first aid pouch. It's fun to look for them at shows or on ebay and gunbroker and if you just buy the pieces as you find nice examples with clear dates, it doesn't hurt your wallet much.

Early in WWII, most of the web gear was made in OD#3 (Khaki) and mid to late WWII most of it was OD#7 (Olive Drab green) but that isn't set in stone and some khaki gear was still being made as late as 1945. You'll find a lot of web gear early to mid WWII that has steel hardware painted black. At the beginning of WWII there was a shortage (perceived or real) of brass, so they started using steel or pot metal - later in WWII when brass was available again they started using it again to make buckles, eyelets, hangars, etc for web gear.

At the bottom of the picture below are two sets of web gear I put together to go along with my carbines. There are MANY variations of gear and you can add bayonets, wire cutters, etc, etc. One set is OD-3 and the other OD-7
(The fashion conscious GI would never have a mix of colors and dates, don't you know!):lol:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fMedium1-1.jpg

Also of importance - A web gear set with holster is awesome to have for display with your 1911, but don't leave your 1911 inside the holster because it can, and will, hurt the finish.


PS - Here's another option you might consider too. (I just put my 1911A1 in the shoulder holster for the photo)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...A1Medium-1.jpg

I hope it doesn't take long to bail out your 1911. Funny, but the first WWII gun I bought was an early Rock-ola and I bought it on lay-away from a local pawn/Army Navy shop. I thought it would take months to pay off, but I managed to finish paying it off in about three weeks.

I don't think it's because he couldn't pay for it, he lives in California like me. I think he means our state's 10 day penalty period.

The first belt with the vertical webbing is WW I or WW II the 2nd belt withe the horizontal webbing is Vietnam era. WW I is a very light tanish OD 3 and WW II OD 3 seems to be a bit darker. the OD7 or dark green did not really show up much till at least after D Day into the Bulge. OD#7 was authorized in 43-44 but you really didn't see it alot untill the stateside replacements were thrown in to the fray.

There were variations in the color of gear all over the place. WWI gear was nearly the same OD#3 as WWII gear when it was new. The very light WWI gear was gear that was used and washed heavily which faded it out a lot. I have had quite a bit of WWI field gear that was almost light brown in color.

OD#7 gear can be seen as early as 42 - There was also a lot of transitional gear 42-43 where colors were mixed on the same piece of gear. Manufacturers used whatever color they could get, and also used up whatever they had in stock.

The transitional wire cutter pouch below was made in 1944 and the early style single hangar shovel cover was made in 42.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/12/133-1.jpg

Agree there wasn't a lot OD7 that reached the ETO. You see more coming into use in the PTO. Most OD7 gear wasn't used until Korea.

What details are used to determine the Vietnam pistol belt by what's shown in the photo?

You really do need to be wary of unmarked belts - the US let many countries like Greece, Denmark and others use US designs for all kinds of web gear, helmets, etc until years after WWII. There were TONS of US made pistol belts that were given to Russia that have been coming back into the US over the past few years in mint unissued condition. They were sent to Russia with no markings at all, but when they were back in the US unscrupulous dealers used rubber stamps to mark them with a new 'US' on the front. (Russian belts didn't have much collector value) -Most often you an tell the Russian belts with the stamped US marking - It's usually too dark and uneven, and with such a dark US on the front they won't have any maker markings or date on the back.

Thanks to all for your responses. Yes, I live in the PRKali and so have to abide by the mandatory ten day jail sentence. Actually worse than that this time, the dealer ran out of handgun safety cards and can't seem to get replacements out of Sacto, still waiting, so looking like maybe three weeks or more. No, I won't be storing the 1911 in the holster (if and when I obtain one), I'm aware of the effect of the tannic acid in leather, it'll be just for show'n'tell. Hoping to get actual 1918 dated items, but looking like it will be a hard, long slog through GB and FleaBay to get the real McCoy at a decent price. I do have a LCC & Co. mag pouch coming in the mail (but will probably fill it with modern mags, two-tones at $100 a crack are a bit too painful). I'll use this WWI look-alike apparent early WWII belt until I can obtain an appropriate earlier one. So the Easter egg hunt continues! Thanks again for your input. :)

The first belt is the Model 1912/36 Pistol Belt. It retains the construction of the Model 1912 belt, but has the Model 1936 alloy closure. It still has the snap for the 1911 magazine pocket.

The second belt appears to be the Model 1956 Individual Equipment Belt.

If you are looking for a rig to match the time period of your Model 1911, both are too late.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

If you are looking for a rig to match the time period of your Model 1911, both are too late.

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Yes, thanks, I realize this, as I said will just use the look-alike (but too late) khaki belt until I can obtain a correct period piece.

Hi Milsurf.
One of these combo cartridge belts might also be a neat alternative you might consider. I can't remember it's military nomenclature right now but one of the experts will probably know. Sorry that I didn't think of one of these before and this is one of my cartridge belts. Obviously, it was intended for carrying a 1911 and a service rifle, and I think it's more interesting than just a run of the mill pistol belt.

There are eyelets on the bottom of it for attaching all the other mandatory field gear you'll need such as a WWI canteen, first aid pouch, etc, and as long as you're at it you must get a M1910 haversack that has straps that attach to the upper eyelets on the cartridge belt and act as suspenders to help hold up your belt loaded with all the essentials. Then you only need to buy an entrenching tool and carrier, and of course a 1905 bayonet to attach to the corresponding flap with eyelets on the side of the haversack, or it'll look incomplete or downright NAKED.
(It's sure fun spending your money!) :lol:

I think one of the coolest things I discovered with this belt was the little instruction sheet folded up in one of the cartridge compartments. I had the belt for some time before I discovered they were in a pocket.

This is a typical WWI rig for the Model 1911 pistol. This is the Model 1912 belt with the Model 1917 magazine snap, Model 1916 holster dated 1917, Model 1917 magazine pocket dated 1918, and Model 1910 first aid pouch dated 1917.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../1zbqxp3-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harlan

There are eyelets on the bottom of it for attaching all the other mandatory field gear you'll need such as a WWI canteen, first aid pouch, etc, and as long as you're at it you must get a M1910 haversack that has straps that attach to the upper eyelets on the cartridge belt and act as suspenders to help hold up your belt loaded with all the essentials. Then you only need to buy an entrenching tool and carrier, and of course a 1905 bayonet to attach to the corresponding flap with eyelets on the side of the haversack, or it'll look incomplete or downright NAKED.

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Having exceeded my $$$ limit in purchasing the pistol in the first place, I'm afraid I'll have to hold off in getting all the goodies. I'll just pretend that I'm an officer, so I get to leave the mess kit, entrenching tool, bayonet and all to the others in my command. :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

This is a typical WWI rig for the Model 1911 pistol.

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Yeppers, that's what I'm looking at to start, though as I mentioned, will need to go slow to first replenish the coffers. Thanks to all for the advice and neat photos.

I was just razzing you Milsurf. I've put together three complete WWII rigs and it really ads up. I intended to put one together for WWI as well, but you can see how far I've gotten.

WWI gear tends to be dirtier/damaged for the most part for obvious reasons, and I try to get better examples - most often if WWI gear is in good shape many people want even more than it's really worth. You just need to take your time when putting these together, and usually you'll find what you want eventually - the 'hunt' is a great deal of the fun to me.

WWI period web belts will have brass buckle attachments. M1912 holsters are difficult to come by and expensive when in decent condition. 1917-1918 M1916 holsters can be found in good shape and reasonably priced. Those holsters, too, will have brass hangars. They are usually dated on the
rear side along with the maker's name. 1918 dated magazine pounches are everywhere. Do a Google search for "WWI holster" ; "WWI pistol belt" or whatever you can think of. There are plenty out there, so no hurry. There are also a couple of pretty good reference books on US military web gear from Pre-WWI to present that make for some interesting reading.

Thanks, Harlan and Jason. I've been scrounging GB and Fleabay, keep getting edged out on the holster and first aid pouch. I do have a mag pouch coming. Also scored a Bolo sheath cheap, now just have to get the matching Bolo knife, ouch! :move eek: No real rush, I suppose, the gun shop still hasn't gotten the handgun safety cards and we're three weeks into it, will go well over a month when finally the sun rises and the 1911 comes home. Sigh.

FWIW, the local Gunne Shoppe finally got the PRK required handgun safety cards in house, and so I signed off on one of those bureaucratic piffles plus three or four other pieces of BS liberal statist papers today, and so my ten day "please, sir, may I have some more" waiting period starts now (I originally bought the piece on 1/24/12). In the meantime I've obtained a 1918 dated 1911 mag pouch, an undated 1917 Bolo sheath (no knife yet, still scheming on that), a model 1916 undated Sears holster (acceptance marked E.T.C.), and a 1918 dated canteen, cup and cover (the latter two items are still in the mail). I surely hope that this won't evolve into another case similar to Garanditis, which I contracted and which terribly ravaged me and my bank account a few years ago. ;)