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I haven't and that's why I ask. Is it an Enfield that has been ground off and commercially sporterized? Or is it a Kybar Pass special made with a forge, hammers, and files ?? No other markings but for the 2 shown.
Thanks,
Emri
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It is marked simply 7mm. Can these be converted to rimless? Maybe 7x57MM ? Or 7x57R ??
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Looks hokey as hell to me. I'd bet it's a total khyber. An interesting rifle, for sure, but not a genuine Lee Enfield.
Just click on the photo to open it. Hover your cursor over the pic to get the tool bar. See the square box with the arrow pointing up to the right ? Click on that icon for full size. You'll see it then!!Quote:
My old eyes cannot make out the markings from the photos.
HTH,
Emri
It looks like a Kyber pass manufactured rifle, but It could also have come from Wah Cant. It is a strange mix of SMLE, No.4, and Mauser, but the hand stamped Made In Pakistan, I think indicates Kyber Pass. It also seems to be of pretty good quality, for a hand made Item.
I wouldn't mind betting that if you bead blast this and put it in the phosphating tank, that you'll find and visibly see that it's made from a few bits welded up together. In other words a complete sack of sh............. er............., manure
But whatever it is, it ain't kosher......... Mind you, you wouldn't want it to be too kosher from Pakistan would you?
My vote is Khyber Pass manufactured. There is that obvious absence of any British markings. The receiver profiles are basically SMLE, but the arse end is missing. The trigger guard and magazine floor plate have a Mauser look to them. Then too the barrel profiles are very different. I think the 'MADE IN PAKISTAN' and '7m/m' markings erase any doubt for me.
If you ran a proofing round through it, I'm betting it would be a Pakistani hand grenade...
Guys: That reciever looks pretty normal right down to details like the rivets on the charger guide. I've read about sporters made by chopping off the butt-socket allowing for a full stock. I'll bet it's a real action body. If someone in the Khyber pass can make something like that with files and chunks of railroad it's amazing.
Ridolpho
Then be amazed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho
That's no Enfield action. Qustom action body. (I don't think it's a "Kustom". Wrong folk.)
Look again at the rear of the action body Ridolpho. Is it a No1 with a No4 safety and locking bolt or a No4 with a No1 bridge charger guide.............? Nope, whatever it is, it's a home made ........er.........., something.
Mate, have you ever seen an action body with the slot at the top of the receiver ring that one has?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho
I reckon it's a bit dodgy too; stepped Mauser-like barrel?
However, remember that the Army & Navy Co-operative Society Ltd. formed 1871 retailed a lot of very nice Lee Enfield sporters.
I have seen several in 7mm, but never got to shoot one. Fit and finish of wood and metal are generally very good. Often have fancy octagonal/round barrels with multi-leaf" express sights. Also short. "fish-belly" magazines. Actually, 7 x 57R or 6.5 x 54R would be fine cartridges for anyone building something a little different from their spares box.
These sporting rifles and those from sundry other early British commercial sources are in a niche of their own.
Then there are the "Lee Speed" commercial "look-alikes", Siamese SMLEs etc.
I've held up a few of my Lee Enfields by the screen to compare and I see what you're all saying but- still some amazing similarities to the genuine #1 Mk3 action (minor details that would be difficult to replicate with primitive machinery). Obviously the receiever ring is not right and a strange barrel is grafted on but it's kind of a neat piece and I was merely trying to encourage the owner to dig deeper for an origin. Also, just because it was a Khyber pass special doesn't mean it would automatically blow up like an early Springfield 1903!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Can't believe you offered to tourch my poor ole Parker Hale but did not make the same offer to this gentelman.
Ah, but there's only one of these HoH. The P-H abominations come in two's or threes. But don't worry unduly - if another of the Mauser/No1/No4's turns up, I'll make the same offer!
I'd pull the trigger anyday on a LN 1903 before I did so on this thing. I think I'll remove the bolt, a couple of other bits and pieces and saw up the rest. I was pretty much headed down that road in the first place, but did want some input from the British rifle crowd.Quote:
Also, just because it was a Khyber pass special doesn't mean it would automatically blow up like an early Springfield 1903!
Thanks for all your help and opinions.
Emri
But before you do chop it Emri, might I suggest that you take twenty or 30 detailed photos of it so that it's recorded 'somewhere' for posterity. It might be a bit of a 'bitzer' but it's an interesting 'bitzer'
Give me the Low Number M1903 any day of the week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho
Peter Laidier
I suppose I see the logic there. That being said have you ever seen a Parker Hale Deluxe with "custom profiled" No 5 butstock and bolt? This might just place my abomination in the same saftey zone of the prestigous and coveted Mauser/ No1./No4 hybrid?
Just saying.
Aw, don't cut it up! There's lots of work in creating that oddity. (But I shoot low S/N '03s, so you know I'm nuts...) What would it take to NOT cut it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emri
AND just think, lots of guys been shooting welded receiver M1 Garands for years, and never even knew it until someone started bringing it out in the open. And to this guy... "If you ran a proofing round through it, I'm betting it would be a Pakistani hand grenade... " you may be right, but some folks are still shooting welded receivers and getting away with it. That don't actually mean its "junk" It's likely all someone had to work with at the time. Gunsmithing by nature, if done by proffesionals, no matter what country there in, does often work for the purpose in which it was intended to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho
I wouldn't bash the poor guy that has it now so bad, he didn't ever say he just purchased a $6K tactical rifle now did he? What he did say looked to me was:
Is it an Enfield that has been ground off and commercially sporterized? Or is it a Kybar Pass special made with a forge, hammers, and files ?? No other markings but for the 2 shown.
I'm inclined to give him a little more slack than he just got some some of you. And No, I aint from Pakistan either. I never even been there. I think what he has is a great example of modern enginuity from back in a day in time, when you worked with what you got. Sometimes, that may not be much, but it's all you got, so you make due with it while you can. Heck, people still do it.
The big difference, HILLBILLY06, is that the Garand is FRONT locking whilst the Lee Enfield is rear locking. Re-welding and re-heat treating the 8620 steel in a Garand receiver is not to be undertaken lightly.
I have seen quite a few P-14s and some Mausers that have been abbreviated by taking a slice out of the receiver just forward of the rear bridge and re-welding. The bolts are likewise modified, usually by making stepped cuts in the middle of the bolt body and rejoining using silver solder. In both procedures, the locking and camming surfaces are kept cool via wet packing so that the hardness is unaffected.
A long time ago I saw a No1 Mk3 shortened in a similar manner. However, that job was done to run a certain sub-sonic rimless pistol cartridge in a compact package. It worked, but it seemed like a lot of work for the end result, especially as in both the Mauser and Lee Enfield shortenings, there is the problem of making a new stock to suit.
Bruce (and others), remember that there was no such thing as short receivers (Ruger, Remington) and a short cartridge was impractical in those longer receivers. You could also buy labor for $5-7 an hour instead of $20-40, as is the case today. Stock work could be had for a couple of hundred even in the 80's and less in the decades prior to the 80's.
We have become so enmeshed in this notion that "if it isn't totally original, it must be a fake, a Bubba or a Kyber Pass abomination and therefore should be junked or cut up so only the perfect and pure will survive for posterity." So sorry, fellas, that ain't gonna happen! They are making new sporter stocks for Enfields and I just bought all the coach work off a Mk III at a recent gunshow, so obvioulsly there are some out there making sporters from Enfields.
This rifle is likely no more dangerous than a number of other custom rifles, both good and bad. Go to any gunshow to see all those available in your area. And the prices will all be sooooooo reasonable, so get all you can afford.:nono: