British Service Revolvers - which one to collect or shoot?

Gents.

I would like to get a British service revolver to collect and shoot. I may shoot it once a year, but I do like to shoot all my milsurps every now and again. It is important that everything I collect be working and firing. Living history! I really like the Great War Webley .455s but the ammo is quite expensive (buck a round), and though reloading does seem possible it is also not easy to find sources of bullets and even load data. They are also not cheap. Almost twice the price of an Enfield revolver.

The Enfield and Albion revolvers of ww2. - well .38 S&W is commercially available for 50 cents a round. That ain't half bad for shooting once a year. Reloading dies and bullets readily available. The Albions are rarer, and cheaper, and only have war dates. But they are double action only. Never fired one of these but have tried a civilian double action revolver and my accuracy was bad. I have found some Mk 1s out there, now and again, not converted to that spurless hammer. Bit more money.

What do the Webley/Enfield shooters and collectors think?

If you want to do it fun and cheaply, find a Webley MkVI that is shaved for .45 ACP. I love mine. You can load to approximate .455 ballistics and shoot for a fraction of the cost.

If you are looking for a collectible piece that you can shoot occasionally, I would not alter the pistol. Even a $1 a round is not that expensive if it is that important to be sure the pistol functions.

Right!
To clarify, I wasn't suggesting modifying a .455, there are lots of already shaved MkVIs out there to adopt.

Sorry guys, I should have mentioned that I am not looking for a modified milsurp, nor one that was not service issue. It has to be original - and could have likely been used in either world war. That eliminates the .45ACP Webley.

In that case, if cost and availability of both pistol and ammo are considerations, your only real choice is an Enfield in .380.

What the .38 like to shoot vs the Webley? Same thing just a smaller bang? Or is the .455 hand cannon really something else well worth the extra $$ to buy and shoot? Is the Mk 1 (double/single action) much better than the Mk 1*(double action only)?

Go and get a .380" Mk1 Enfield for the reasons you and others have already mentioned. After your first or second shoot, I can guarantee that you'll have got to like them and you'll be looking for a Mk1*.......... then a Mk1**.......... then an Albion of each and........

Good, tough and hardy little pistols. They were good enough for the British Army from the early 30's until the late 60's/early 70's

That is what I was scared to hear :) - I guess the proof of any good milsurp is how long it was in service, and the Mk 1 has a record in that regard.
Ok, the Mk 1 it is to start....to start. Sounds like how my Enfield collection started, then the FN Browning pistols.
Thanks all.
Cheers,

And while your collecting, be sure to get the HAC Enfield, and of course, the Webley 38 and not last or least the S&W Lend Lease revolver. Oh yes, and the Singapore versions.

All well and good, but once you shoot one of the .455s you'll start saving a lot on .380 ammo! ;)

Once you get it there is no cure......

I have bought and used British pistols. Including one I have never found a cartridge for. I will take a picture of it. Maybe somebody has an issue round. gary

here is the picture. anyone have an issue cartridge? Pistol is a Navy issue semi auto in cal .455, dated 1913. I made cartridges from .45 long colt. Gary.

Attachment 31871Attachment 31872Here is one from my box of miscellaneous ammo, the only one I have. Left to right, .455 Webley Auto, .45ACP, .455 Webley revolver. Wonderful pistol, I've seen photos of 1911s in .455 Eley auto but I don't have the coin for either. Regards, Tom

Well I got a Mk 1 in 38 S&W and the ammo is available at my local Lebarons shop for a respectable $28 for 50.
Have to say it was GREAT to shoot. I only bought one box but the next day I bought 4 and cannot wait to shoot it again.
Really liked the top break down and it was quite accurate in single action. My first revolver...and it looks like my Glock is going to get jealous real fast.
Now I have to get a .455.

kinda figured that would happen , soon you will be looking for others , that singapore/toranto webly mkIV is a very good shooter as well - not war models tho

Recently ( five days ago ) i bought a revolver Webley 38 200 to put next my Enfield n.4 Mk1

I found a surplus of Israel army ( Israel six star and Tsahal marks on right side )

The rev. it is practically new ( very very nice , really in mint condition , all matching ) then my mind it is to utilize "her" ( sometime ) in the range.

First thing i "slugged" the bore and the cylinder and i seen the following meas. :

- barrel seven lands - groove .3630 / .3635 -
- cylinder chambers in the narrowest point .3615 /.3620

Waiting for the dies to start reload , i shoot a dozen of commercial Fiocchi 146 gr
FMJ ( .3565 ) and i seen , at 25 mt , a very poor accuracy , then i think i will shoot
only lead wdcutter HB bullets

Now i have the big curiosity to know the reason ( if there is one ) to make the chamber narrowest than barrel ( i think worsing the accuracy - i ever seen the reverse concept )

Having regard to the destination ( military ) , may be to shoot safely ammo produced by different factories ? simply a construction tolerance ? or to avoid problems in case of a
not perfect cylinder timing ?

any of you has some info in this regard ? may be Mr. Laidler ?

Thanks in advance for your answers

CC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CCAMERA50

- barrel seven lands - groove .3630 / .3635 - - cylinder chambers in the narrowest point .3615 /.3620 Waiting for the dies to start reload , i shoot a dozen of commercial Fiocchi 146 gr FMJ ( .3565 ) and i seen , at 25 mt , a very poor accuracy , then i think i will shoot only lead wdcutter HB bullets

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Revolvers need to be fired with a round-nose lead bullet that can slug up in the forcing cone. As you have seen, modern 357 bullets, which tend to be too hard, will just scoot through the chamber mouth, cone and barrel while hardly touching the edges. The result is about the same as if you were to fire a smooth-bore muzzleloader without a patch - awful accuracy.

You need medium-hard (Brinell 10-15) not real hard, round-nose bullets that are a fairly close fit to the chamber mouth. On firing, the sheer inertia of the lead means that they slug up a couple of thousandths of an inch to fit the chamber mouth. When they hit the forcing cone, they slug up even more and are effectively swaged down lightly into the barrel.
All this assumes, of course, that the barrel diameter across the lands (not grooves) is actually tighter than the chamber mouth diameter. That is actually more important than the groove diameter. Please measure the land diameter and post the result.

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Originally Posted by sledge

not easy to find sources of bullets

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Not so. Forget the misleading .455 designation.. They take common-or-garden .452 bullets. But NOT jacketed and preferably not hard lead. After all, revolver bullets are trundling along at black-powder velocities. So the revolver works best (at least, mine does) with medium-hard bullets (about Brinell 10-15) which are...
1) ...thanks to their inertia and (relative) softness, bumped up on firing to fill the chamber mouth, ensuring that they are parallel to the chamber axis.
2) ... swaged down by the the forcing cone to fit the bore.

1) and 2) are both necessary for best accuracy.

So you just need ordinary round-nose lead bullets. Or the wadcutters that look like a lead dustbin, with a slightly rounded nose - NOT those semi-wadcutter things that have a step. Best of all are the original form 255/265 gn bullets with a hollow base - rather like a Minie bullet - and they function very similarly. The Webley MK VI chamber is bored so that it can also take the Mk I cartridges (the old black-powder version) which is slightly longer. So there is a slight step where the mouth of the MK I cartridge would be, which is about 1/8" or so (someone else can dig out the data) in front of the Mk II case mouth, with the result that the step on the stepped bullets bangs into the step in the chamber. The bullet is skewed and accuracy is lousy.
The hollow base round-nose design is so long that the parallel portion reaches up to the step in the chamber, ensuring that the bullet starts moving properly centered on the chamer axis.

Get the original design of bullet if you can. Otherwise get .452 round-nose lead bullets. Hornady make excellent Mk II cases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Please measure the land diameter and post the result.

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I agree 100 %

The diameter across the lands it is surely narrowest then .3565 ( the Fiocchi bullet diam. ) - the lands
have a very good thickness ( almost like a rifle ) - a.s.a.p. i will post the exact meas. -

meantime i ordered ( in USA ...! ) the mould to reply the original 200 gr. lead bullet .362 dia.
so i will can cast , size as needing and reply the appropriate Mk2 crtrg .

thank you and best regards

CC

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Originally Posted by CCAMERA50

a.s.a.p. i will post the exact meas. -

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well, the dia. across the lands it is .348 then the thikness of a single land should be almost .0077

then i think should be none problem to fit a soft alloy ( as you told ) lead bullet RN dia .361 ( or .362 , ....i will test )
and see more accuracy then the FMJ Fiocchi i tested first

correct ?

CC

Correct!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Correct!

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very well ! i hope will post soon some result ( .....target )

Thank you and best regards ;-))

CC

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Originally Posted by sledge

British Service Revolvers - which one to collect or shoot?

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Getting back to the original question - there is only one answer. The Webley MKVI is absolutely the iconic British revolver. Thanks to Hollywood, it is has an enormously high recognition factor. And it is pleasant to shoot, easy to look after, and if you are a reloader and do not get irritated by the .455 designation, shoots quite ordinary .452 bullets. Lead, of course, and round-nose please! (I have already explained why in a previous post).