No4 Based Target rifles - Collectable?

I have seen quite a few target rifles for sale in 7.62 x 51 based on the No4 action which to me as a novice in the Lee Enfield and shooting world seem highly desirable and very cheap.
They are produced by what seem to have been regarded as very professional gunsmiths such as A J Parker, Parker Hale and Fultons and if I was free to collect, I would probably have aquired at least half a dozen by now.
So why do they not sit alongside the L39 and Envoy, and even the 7.62 Conv. rifles in terms of collectors interest?.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jss

So why do they not sit alongside the L39 and Envoy, and even the 7.62 Conv. rifles in terms of collectors interest?

---

Probably because they have no military history/connection, therefore little interest for collectors. And as target rifles they are (usually) outclassed by more modern rifles. So not very interesting for shooters either.

Currently only worth the value of the parts in them, unfortunately.

Ironically, a first generation No4 target rifle is probably all that most target shooters actually need.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunderbox

Currently only worth the value of the parts in them, unfortunately.

---

I don't really understand, as I personally find them a more interesting proposition to a modern target rifle. But good news if I can get "Them" to allow me collect a few!.
Just seems odd that the DCRA and SR(b) rifles are of interest here when these are not.

Just an afterthougth. Is it perhaps that there are in fact very few variations apart from perhaps the woodwork, thus one is enough?.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunderbox

Currently only worth the value of the parts in them, unfortunately.

Ironically, a first generation No4 target rifle is probably all that most target shooters actually need.....

---

And a cheap and cheerfull way of getting into the sport, dont forget the hundreds of converted P14,s still out there......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bigduke6

dont forget the hundreds of converted P14,s

---

Yes. A few of those as well!. If only Bisley was on the doorstep!.
Do the P14's have the edge with the supposedly stronger action?.

I'd collect some if I had any money and could find one. Not many around in California.

Actually I'd love to get one but they seem to be nonexistent around here. While I do like the history behind the military issue rifles I like most firearms old and new, military issue and civilian. Particularly bolt action rifles.

JSS

Your based in Oxfordshire. The same Shire as Peter Laidler, one of the best sources of information on British Military Firearms.

And you want to collect Civilian target rifles.....how does that work?

Paul

Mind you, I have Parker Hale 4T, plus an old Omark, sitting at my local firearms dealer, awaiting Police approval to pick them up.:banghead:

I've had a few and like them a lot. I find it very interesting from a target shooting enthusiasts point of view, and as a No4 collector. For what it's worth, well set up these rifles shoot brilliantly. They have their limitations, and they won't out shoot modern well set up target rifles, but they will out shoot a bunch of half decent shooters.

I say,very collectable!I have about 15 in my collection.Some from well know target shooters from the 50'-60's.Fun to collect the different target sights and see how each one is set up and bedded.
DCRA 7.62's are very interesting as they are some of the only enfields factory converted to 7.62..I have one that was used in the 1967 palma match.
Target rifles are an important part of the history of Enfields.

The interesting ones have been worked over meticulously by men who knew more about tuning these rifles than any six internet posters put together. (Present company excused.) I have a No4 Regulated by Fulton that has a widened foreend, which was slabbed on the original bedded centre section of the stock. It is a single feed with a filled in magazine well. The trigger is hung, and the most delicate single pressure pull you can imagine. Sights. Barrel. Butt. Trigger guard. No part has not been examined and improved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jss

Yes. A few of those as well!. If only Bisley was on the doorstep!.
Do the P14's have the edge with the supposedly stronger action?.

---

In the "olden days" the received wisdom (Which I later found out was based on fact.) was that the Mauser actioned P14 was better at shorter ranges for example 200 yards but the Lee-Enfields better for longer ranges, that is to say 600 yards and out; due to the "self-compensating" nature of the Lee action.

There is an auction held at Newark (the one in the UK) every 8 weeks -There are normally at least 4 or 5 - or more - 7.62 "target rifles" based on both No4 and P14 actions - they rarely fetch above £100 (unless fitted with PH rear sights or scopes)

I actually bought one and built an Enforcer 'clone' when I thought I'd never find a real Enforcer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunderbox

Currently only worth the value of the parts in them, unfortunately.

---

Apparently so. Just phoned about what looked like a nice A J Parker TR going for £150. Sold in a day to a dealer for the receiver!.
What a shame. A rifle that is probably as it was when it came out of the A J Parker works is to be stripped for its receiver and probably turned into another fake No4. Like buying a Lotus Elan and putting the engine back into a Ford Cortina!.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jss

Apparently so. Just phoned about what looked like a nice A J Parker TR going for £150. Sold in a day to a dealer for the receiver!.
What a shame. A rifle that is probably as it was when it came out of the A J Parker works is to be stripped for its receiver and probably turned into another fake No4

---

There are 3x P14,s on guntrader at present £95, £100, £120, the £95 one has had a big stock fitted ( its in your neck of the woods), but comes with a PH sight, the others have no pictures, maybe worth a call. one of them maybe a Fulton or AJ Parker ?

Theres also a No4 7.62 Whitaker rifle on the Gun Mart site:

Bolt action : Whitaker Special 7.62 Match Rifle

My club has a bunch of those AJ Parker No.4 conversions that they want to sell. I think I'll probably have one, but that still leaves three.

Thanks all for the great response as usual. I was expecting a bit of flak for some reason. I just hate to think of a rifle that someone has carefully and professionally put together being dismantled for its parts, especially after the compelling photographic and anecdotal content posted here regarding the A J Parker company.
But if they are so unwanted then who am I to argue. This is a bit of a minefield for a novice!.
How about a nice Envoy or L39 parted out for sporterisation. Would that be acceptable?.
How many of these 1st gen. rifles are out there and why does no-one want them?. You don't see many "Conv's" around any more. Or have they all been parted out?.
Questions, questions.........I do apologise. Perhaps you should ban newbies!.

Very few people here have got any use for 'sporter' rifles and if they do they'll go and buy one out of the store. They won't select .303, which is too much gun for most quarry animals in the British Isles.

Grrr. All these rifles sitting over there across the pond. Anyone know of any No.4 based target rifle available here in the USA?

Maple Leaf is quite right in what he says (thread 13) about these so called 'specials' The trouble is that all these so called san-fandanglio ideas, methods, theories etc etc are all well and good but they are the ideas, theories, methods etc etc of many many different people who all have different....... you get my drift! Mind you, just from an engineering eye, some seem a bit, er......, suspect to say the least. Some of ther haronic theories wouldn't face up to close scrutiny either

What was/is needed is a pooling of all these ideas so that a perfect standard could be achieved. Alas, as JSS says later in thread 16, the car comparison is fair too. The TROUBLE is that they are all racing on a late 30's Morris 8 chassis. You can call it what you like and do a bit of this and that, put a new barrel on and mess around with harmonics and vibrations - but you ain't going to win any races.

I wonder just how one of these san fandanglio 'specials' compares for accuracy with a properly set up L39/scopeless L42 set-up.

I feel that's the reason that these specials have just fallen by the wayside. Theyain't competitive any more, that means not worth much whereas reverting one back to standard form means that they're worth more........... unless some clown has chopped the back off!

If you're into MGB GT's, it'd be like owning an MGB V8 converted by Costello. On the other hand, you could have the real McCoy made by MG

Yes. The car analogy fits to a degree but you are right. On reflection, the Elan was pretty, imaginative but an engineering disaster compared to the Cortina GT, the Tuscan while fun and stronger was not as good as the Granada and the B GT was rock solid, high quality and pretty, straight from the factory.(All of them overtaken easily by a Peugeot 205 GTI!.)

So why did these 1st Generation target rifles emerge. Are they better than the L39/Conv/L42 which I imagine were readily available at the time, and if so why are they worth less.

I don't know whether these 'specials' are any better than an L39. I mean 'better' as in 'more accurate' . But the L39's/42's enforcers are from the factory (although it's hard to believe from the sometimes dire quality.....) whereas the others are just , well, specials and the concensus is that they'll never feature prominently in the Lee Enfield hall of fame

On the subject of a good chassis, you could have a Cortina GT or you COULD have a LOTUS Cortina. Talking of which, where are you now GEV 134 H

Anyone else care to comment on the accuracy of these specials over the L39 series?

Tha L39 I had shot better than me and my eyes.the No4 conversion target rifle I had (had to sell both) shot better than me and my eyes. Thge DCRA I DO have shoots better than etc etc etc. Never had a No.1 based target rifle but I'm betting if it was still in good condition it would ..well you can see where this is going can't you. Still want to get one though.

Handmade forend, centre bedded, reamed nose cap, full top wood, central sight, odd forsight, foresight protector, very good-excellent heavy barrel, turned up bolt handle, superb trigger, 2 point sling setup. I love these old things but I can't get $550 for this one, so maybe there's not as many people collecting these in Australia and I thought there may be... At least it means I get to keep it!

The trouble is TBone, that even collecting them isn't easy. For every 'converter' of these 'specials', if the special is made for a specific person, then every one will be different. So where do you start?

Someone who shall be nameless said to me today that he bought 2x 7.62mm P-14's just to machine the meaty barrels to L39/42 spec for needy Enfields

T bone. when you send me the Forend for the L42alike - just slip that No.1 into the packing - no-one would ever notice.

Well, Tbone, it's probably because here in Australia, we've allready got one.:beerchug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Well, Tbone, it's probably because here in Australia, we've allready got one.:beerchug:

---

Or moore
No1Mk3, No4mk1*, No4Mk1, P14, Plus some other lithgow, Sportco ones as well.

I really only bought it for parts myself, but it was just to nice to rip apart. I'm going to shoot it this weekend, and see how she goes.

Let us know TBone. I suspect that like these specials based on No4's, that it probably won't shoot any better than a properly set up standard rifle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Someone who shall be nameless said to me today that he bought 2x 7.62mm P-14's just to machine the meaty barrels to L39/42 spec for needy Enfields

---

Would those "needy Enfields" still be considered Enfields in collecting terms or just parts rifles, Enfields with already 3rd party P14 barrels "adjusted" to look like the original, effectively assembled from what seems to be deemed scrap. Would it not be better to machine a new barrel. At least then it could still be called an Enfield with a brand new part fitted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jss

Would those "needy Enfields" still be considered Enfields in collecting terms or just parts rifles, Enfields with already 3rd party P14 barrels "adjusted" to look like the original, effectively assembled from what seems to be deemed scrap. Would it not be better to machine a new barrel. At least then it could still be called an Enfield with a brand new part fitted.

---

I guess its down to cosmetics ( the snake skin finish ) and price, you can get a far greater price for an L39/ L42 than a P14 Target rifle.

The P14,s possibly just barreled actions etc and whole lot cheaper than a new barrel, makes sense to shift the L39 or L42, with a recycled barrel, with correct finish, very little cost and pleasing to the eye.

The P14 actions can be kept for parts or rebuilt at some statge, and are excellent for a wide range of calibres......

Getting off the subject a bit now, but don';t forget that not all the heavy L39/42 barrels were the snakeskin finish. The later ones were lathe/machine finished with a 'centre' portion. Certainly those that I, er..... 'set aside' for want of a better word were the later sort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Getting off the subject a bit now, but don';t forget that not all the heavy L39/42 barrels were the snakeskin finish. The later ones were lathe/machine finished with a 'centre' portion. Certainly those that I, er..... 'set aside' for want of a better word were the later sort.

---

Thought someone may mention the later barrels, but I dont think u see many of these on a £50 special.

I have two "range rifles" from OZ and am quite happy with them. Still part of the history.
Also a L39A1 and a copy of one from Ms Parker of of AJ Parker. ( bought that before the government released the L42's and L39's)

As a US collector of Enfield based target rifles I have noted that it is very difficult to find 7.62/308 variants here in the US. Most of the examples we have drifted south from Canada unless they were part of the 1994 Navy Arms L39A1 import.

At the same time they do not go for that much money when found. A few years ago I was able to get a 1982 Palma Omark and 1974 Musgrave Palma rifle for 1500 for the pair, out the door price (both compete with sights and the provenance as Robert Jensen’s rifles). Now I bought them at Camp Perry and as they had sat for a few days before I saw them I was surprised in an environment like that no one bought them. The 1971 and 1976 Winchester Palma rifles for sale at the same time were 1.5 times the cost each of the British target rifles combined price. A year ago I bought a 1979 Omark NZ Palma rifle with sights for 900; it sat 6 months before I saw it.

The same is true of No 4 based 7.62 Target rifles here, with the exception of DCRA rifles, for some reasons they and L39A1 rifles over 1000 dollar rifles. The cut back .3908 No 4 based rifles are dirt cheap if you see them. My Canadian No 4 conversion with a like new heavy LBS Omark barrel was about 500 dollars. My 7.62 hammer forged beat up sported target rifle was 270 dollars in 1999.

I think a lot of it has to do with the decline of fullbore NRA type shooting; the young guys want to shoot AR-15 rifles and AK-47 pattern arms and make a lot of noise. The market for obsolete target rifles is really quite flat. At a .local collectors show there is a really nice M1903 .308 Norma magnum target rifle with mint barrel, dies and 40 pieces of brass that has not sold in over a year at an asking price of 750. It is a really nice rifle, an ideal starter rifle for a fellow that wanted to try out NRA mid-range or long range shooting. Very nice complete set of target sights, with a on it as well. No interest.

As a comparison, a tube gun set up in 7.62, 30-06 or 6.5-284 is at least a 1500 dollar rifle by the time you get done, without sights. These seem to be the rage these days with the competitive shooters I know.

A lot of palma rifles for sale here

No4Stuff | Just another WordPress.com site

correct but in Canada. grrr.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bigduke6

There are 3x P14,s on guntrader at present £95, £100, £120, the £95 one has had a big stock fitted ( its in your neck of the woods), but comes with a PH sight, the others have no pictures, maybe worth a call. one of them maybe a Fulton or AJ Parker ?

---

Thanks for the above.
I went to have a look at the £95 one. Not pretty, in fact ugly, cracked stock which needs some of that brass repair wire and some superglue, sloppy bolt, PH sights and a very meaty barrel. The seller described it as "rubbish" I think, as he put it on the counter in front of me.( He also said that there was no interest unless "someone like me" turned up??!!) Mine for 80 quid probably less. And yes I'd buy it, clean it up and keep it "as is" if I had the freedom to do so. But I see what you mean about using the barrels from these these unwanted rifles. However, to me it's a rifle that someone built for a purpose, possibly with great care and skill so I just don't think I could turn it into a Lee Enfield costing 10 times the price. But then again, if I had a Lee Enfield needing a barrel............
I only wish I was free to buy it just to get a closer look. Perhaps then I would understand. At least I could sell the barrel.
How much work is involved turning one of these P14 7.62 barrels into a Lee Enfield one?.

Turn one of the heavy 7.62mm P-14 barrels into a No4 barrel. A piece of pudding, even on a simple Myford lathe. My friend did one for his No5 last weekend and used my L42 CHS gauges so that it threaded/breeched up exactly at the correct CHS. Hasn't quite finished it yet. Left it slightly thicker under the fore-end

Re the above............ we spoke too soon! Just realised that we machined it 1" too long now we've got to unbreech, re-machine and refit flash eliminator. But while others call these things cock-ups or mistakes, I prefer to call it character building.

Is there a solution to the scarcity of "good" target rifles here in the US? Is there any one who has imported a rifle from the UK?

BTW, in reference to the car analogy earlier, 1/3 of my three car garage is occupied by an 1952 MG TD. Complete with a new wooden frame - yes, there are some things you just have to improve on in this day

Brian Dick perhaps? He has done this in the past and it a great guy to deal with. Check out BDL Limited.

I dont have any target rifles, but i do have something close to a MG :)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../04/ah1n-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...04/ah2er-1.jpg

5thBatt,

Very nice indeed!!
Cheers.

---------- Post added at 04:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 PM ----------

5thBatt,
Does look much like a James Bond come Arms Dealer's car..........hope that wooden frame isn't made of Long Branch / Savage Black American Walnut or Lithgow Coachwood !

LOVELY to see that 5th Batt! Square arch chrome bumper(less) model........ What year? I'll be driving past its birthplace in an hour or two and will doff my hat in reverence for you and Captpetes TD

Square arch Chrome bumper puts it early - mid 70's doesn't it. 74 / 75 - I think 76 was the Rubber bumper horror show.

It went from square arch to roundarch for a year or so then back to squared off but rubber bumper but I'm not sure really. The roundarch ones weren't popular for a couple of reasons, mainly the insurance companies because just a simple hit in the rear creased/buckled the bodyshell across the shallow rear wheel arch and wrote the shell off. If you were really unlucky, the bump pushed the tank into the bumper and split it open too! We see a few making the pilgrimage to their ancestral home during the summer. It's funny how the classic MGB GT's STILL look ageless

How come its a left hooker in NZ 5th Batt? Non standard motor/box with those larger dia wheels?

Its a 1963 MkII Austin Healey Sprite.
The car was imported from California about 8 years ago, we brought it as a "basket case" 5 years ago at a swap meet.
Here's Lisa with her other "MkII"
We also have a MkIII Zodiac but that in a gazillion pieces down at my paint shop
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...isascars-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

but rubber bumper

---

Think it was 76 and onwards, (had a 79 MG Midget Rubber bumper, 1500 engine and Marina Gear box.)

5thBatt, Nice cars but the Mk11 Cortina wins it for me, its one of the top 5 cars on the want list, was very close to buying a Mk3 last year but decided to hold on for a Mk11, unless a Mk1 Escort pops up at the right price.

Nope.............. it's the model in the middle for me that takes the biscuit! I've never owned a Midget but have had a Mk2 Lotus Cortina - wherever you are now GEV134H plus my Mini Coopers that I still have. Not your modern BMW minis but the REAL ones!

Incidentally, back to the subject. we corrected the 7.62mm No5 barrel length yesterday and will be shooting it next weekend after phosphating and painting. I don't hold out any great hopes for its accuracy though!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I don't hold out any great hopes for its accuracy though!

---

So, have you and your friend created something more desirable or collectable than the donor rifle, a mini moke of the Lee Enfield world perhaps!.
Or would it have been more rewarding to spruce up the donor rifle into a highly accurate precision instrument?.

And yes, the B GT still looks fantastic as does 5thBatt's line up......

You are right about originality of course JSS but it was a cheap and cheerful shot-out .303" No5 that he's had for 30 years or so. But in our position, where we shoot for fun al lunch times, it's cheaper for us to use readily available cheap RG 7.62 ammo. But even with the body machined to take the plentiful 7.62 mags, the rifle can still be converted back to its original form when he decides to sell it on - should the buyer want it of course

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

But in our position, where we shoot for fun al lunch times,

---

Point taken. If only there were more ranges readily available to us civvies, we too could shoot for fun at lunch times. My thoughts exactly as I perused the backdrop to 5thBatt's photos. Those hills looked ideal for a safe range.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Nope.............. it's the model in the middle for me that takes the biscuit! I've never owned a Midget but have had a Mk2 Lotus Cortina - wherever you are now GEV134H plus my Mini Coopers that I still have. Not your modern BMW minis but the REAL ones!

Incidentally, back to the subject. we corrected the 7.62mm No5 barrel length yesterday and will be shooting it next weekend after phosphating and painting. I don't hold out any great hopes for its accuracy though!

---

Is the wandering zero problem going to show up.

I don't think sp Bindi, we don't engage in gun battles or spend hours letting them get hot! Just good cheap fun!

I managed to accumulate these four in about 20 years of collecting. All were from various estate sales.https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ves7624s-1.jpg

Nice. What exactly are they? Is the top one an AIA model?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by newcastle

Nice. What exactly are they? Is the top one an AIA model?

---

Not by the look of that Enfield 7.62 magazine; the AIA's have an M-14 type magazine

Newcastle:

Top rifle is a Longbranch '43 No1/3 DCRA, 2nd from top: Parker Hale 4T. 3rd from top: A.J. Parker "Excel". Bottom: Canadian-built scrubbed No4 Mk2 target rifle with Enfield 7.62 barrel and PH 'twin-zero" sights.

Thanks for the photos curator. Very nice rifles. Those are almost exactly what I was hoping to add to my collection. Permission denied unfortunately.
A wandering zero I know, but here is another "collectable" I found to try and get the point across... http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/t...on_Trident.htm
No restrictions on ownership either!.
I admit I am surprised how few here seem interested in these rifles. I think many of them are at least as desirable as a Classic milsurp.

Thanks for the responses.

JSS,

I got a couple of my 7.62 Enfields from my Canadian relatives when the long-gun registery took effect several years ago. Living on the border in Western New York, it was relatively easy for them to get them across to me. Sorry to say, my grandfather and his family left England for America in 1920 because of economic and civil restrictions, among those, gun registration and licensing. I actually have my Grandfather's Boer-War Webley MkIV pistol he brought back from Africa, and a Martini Enfield .303 rifle he used to train "native" troops in the Transvaal. Imagine that happening today!

If we are showing British cars here is one of mine.. 1950. gary

While we're off tropic I'll add this

Attachment 32797

Once again Arado and Gary above, words fail me................. a MAGNIFICENT sight.......

This is my Crown Jewel. Anglo British. mine since 1985. I love to work on machines.. Cars, guns and motorcycles.....gary

Ah, a Tiger? I mentioned a Tiger. The original wolf in sheeps clothing - or was that the Mini Coopers of 1962

That's a beautiful thing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sunbeam Tiger. Lovely little car. I wish I could afford one.
I Love about anything powered by a Windsor Ford my all time favorite engine. Great power potential and reliability in a small package whats not to love.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Ah, a Tiger? I mentioned a Tiger. The original wolf in sheeps clothing - or was that the Mini Coopers of 1962

---

To me it was the MG 1100. First transverse front wheel drive. The best I had untill the VW Scirrocco. gary