Versailles Treaty "Double Date" GEW 98

Can find no real info on this matching (as reworked) 1916 Danzig. It's not a Kar 98b with the bent down bolt handle and side sling mounting. Just a tangent sighted GEW 98. Any insights?

Photos may be a problem, but here goes...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff011-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff019-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff076-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff084-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff092-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff065-1.jpg
The follower looks to be modified to allow it to rise high enough in the bolt raceway to act as a stop even though it has the WWI type bevel in the rear. Like the rest, it's S/N matches.

Having dramas editing photos. :banghead: So I'll bail for now. But here's a link to the entire album in slideshow format:

Image hosting, free photo sharing video sharing at Photobucket

Hopefully, it'll be a bit more viewable as the week progresses!

Although it's a carbine, under Germany, does the MKL entry for a Danzig help? :)

1913/1920 (Double Dated) Kar98a Carbine

Regards,
Doug

That entry was referenced promptly, but this rifle isn't really mentioned in my few Mauser books. It's all Kar 98a (short) or Kar 98b (the full sized version). Just found it (and the gunshop that had it) Saturday! I've not seen one quite like it before- which may not mean a whole lot...

(A friend bought a late Kriegsmodell K98K with the zf41 mount at that same shop upon making a hasty return which I missed seeing in time. So your old scope might get some range time- finally! Have yet to fabricate a elevation "clicker" for it, though.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

but this rifle isn't really mentioned in my few Mauser books.

---

Simple - you need that fine example of bedtime reading - "Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel" by Wacker & Görtz !!

P.222 shows the Reichswehr marking plan. The reference provided by Badger is correct. The 1920 is the mark that indicates this is one of the rifles "officially" taken over by the Reichswehr. The arms limitation according to the Versailles treaty allowed the German Republic to have 21 Infantry regiments, and each company had a contingent of 166 Gew 98 - the Kar98 was not yet the standard infantry weapon.

The 1920 mark should also be visible on the left side of the butt, about halfway between the takedown throughbolt and the buttplate. Have a look, it may be faintly marked. If there is a regimental marking anywhere, it should be in the style: 1.J.R.2.3, where J.R: stands for Jnfantrie Regiment, using the capital J to avoid confusion with a number 1. If you find such a mark, please post it here, and I may be able to tell you precisely to which unit the rifle was assigned.

Bearing in mind the Versailles treaty restrictions, and the fact that the army was gradually equipped with K98k in the following years, I think that you have found a rarity. Congratulations, that is a keeper. Not quite hens' teeth category, but definitely uncommon.

:wave:
Patrick

---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

Just looked at the photo-album. As far as I can see, a fully marked and all matching Gew. 98 from 1916, apparently arsenal overhauled and assigned to the Reichswehr, judging by the stock repairs and the occasional post-1920 eagle stamps which replaced the imperial crown. Please check out the butt and the buttplate for other markings as explained previously. And the rifling at the bore looks excellent for the vintage!

I finally found a brief paragraph about this rebuild in Olson's book. He mentioned the wider lower band which escaped my notice. Sure enough, this rifle has it. They modified the band retaining spring so that it would properly engage. However, the sweeping curve on the spring's top surface is now gone, so getting the band started forward is a real bother! This wide band with the bottom swivel must be particularly scarce. It's unique to this rework as far as I know- at least in German usage.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff031-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff022-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...17100011-1.jpg
Note the narrower rear band on this 1915 rifle. (Sorry for lack of a close up- the need was unanticipated! This is an old photo from a previous thread.)

You commonly see the "1920" referred to as a rebuild stamp, but had nothing to do one way or the other with a rebuild. So many weapons had been stolen following the Great War that the Reichswehr put out a directive that all stolen military arms be turned in. These weapons were stamped with the 1920 as a property stamp, and if you were found with a weapon so stamped, you were guilty of theft of that military arm.

The directive outlined where the 1920 property mark was to be applied to each type of weapon. As common with other directives, some were not sure as to exactly which arms it applied. Jan Still has a picture of a G Date P.08 (1935) with the 1920 property stamp.

Things I've found so far that distinguish this rifle from your garden variety WWI Gew 98:

1)Tangent rear sight
2)Wide rear band (and shortened band spring)
3)"1920" above original manufacturer's markings on receiver ring.
4)Modified follower which now works as an "empty magazine warning" bolt stop. (I've not seen this mentioned in published references, yet, but haven't gone back through to double check.)
5) Blued receiver and receiver parts.

Some rework clues:
1) the additional blued parts (and bluing over corroded areas on the cocking piece and front band- not yet photographed in detail)
2)Later style inspector's marks on the safety and front action screw
3)Renumbered floorplate and firing pin

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff091-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff067-2.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff041-1.jpg

The Germans shipped large numbers of older Gew98's to Spain during the Spanish Civil war. Likely this is one of them. You may find a very tiny Spanish stamp on the bottom of the receiver in front of the front guard screw hole. Nice keeper, for sure.

I believe this to be a transitional Kar98b. Basically, it appears to have all the 98b features apart from a bent bolt handle, the scalloped recess in the stock for the bent bolt, and a K98k-style sling inlet in the buttstock.

In any event, it looks like a nice rifle. Congrats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claven2

I believe this to be a transitional Kar98b. Basically, it appears to have all the 98b features apart from a bent bolt handle, the scalloped recess in the stock for the bent bolt, and a K98k-style sling inlet in the buttstock.

In any event, it looks like a nice rifle. Congrats.

---

It does seem that way. But odd that, unlike most Mauser variants, there's very little info.

Oy, Cali-Steve: Made me look! But, no, only the usual German markings. Photos of that area to follow.

Very small stamp. I really need to post my GEW98 with Spanish stamp. Only one I've ever seen.

I'll show you what's on my undersides if you'll show me what's on yours, Calif-Steve!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff064-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff063-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff059-1.jpg

Here's comparative photos of the standard and the "1920 type" rear bands:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff028-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff027-1.jpg
WWI and previous

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tuff0311-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tuff0511-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff050-1.jpg
The "upgraded" band and modified retaining spring

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

The follower looks to be modified to allow it to rise high enough in the bolt raceway to act as a stop even though it has the WWI type bevel in the rear.

---

The bolt-stop effect at is not a modification, but original standard. The idea was to warn the shooter in the heat of battle that his magazine was empty! The short ramp is to aid feeding. A common modification for the calmer world of target shooting was (and still is) to grind down that short ramp so that it no longer acts as a bolt stop.

:wave:
Patrick

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

The bolt-stop effect at is not a modification, but original standard. The idea was to warn the shooter in the heat of battle that his magazine was empty! The short ramp is to aid feeding. A common modification for the calmer world of target shooting was (and still is) to grind down that short ramp so that it no longer acts as a bolt stop.

:wave:
Patrick

---

Hmmm, well then why do my other Gew 98s not have the bolt stop feature? Their followers don't have the additional vertical cut at the rear.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff041-2.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff040-2.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

Hmmm, well then why do my other Gew 98s not have the bolt stop feature? Their followers don't have the additional vertical cut at the rear.

---

Well that's an unfair question! How should I know where your rifles have been? But seriously, there were several follower styles over the decades - I have a few in my 98-family spares box. It looks as if only the original Gew.98 ones were numbered. Later examples are unnumbered, even unmarked.
Attachment 32449
From left to right:
1) Original, Prussian-proofed and numbered Gew.98 follower.
2) Later, anonymous Gew. 98 follower.
3) Follower from Carl Gustaf M1896 Swedish Mauser.
4) Follower with unidentified marking - looks like a kind of 8 within a circle - in fact, very like the Osaka Arsenal mark !!!!

Note various styles of left-hand milling and varying lengths. Once these things land in the spares box it can be difficult to work out where they came from. And any wartime armorer with a workbench full of rifles undergoing repair and overhaul is likely to mix them up and not give a hoot about collectors' ideas of "correctness".

So ask your rifles where they've been!

:wave:
Patrick

My understanding is the early Gew98's have no bolt hold open feature, but at some point in production it was added to all Mauser 98's. Modern gunsmiths usually grind away the hold open when building on a 98 action as it's not desirable in a sporting rifle. I have done this many times when building orphan actions into sporting rifles.

Indeed, it was a combat lesson learned in WWI. Note: everyone thinks the Assualt Rifle (MP44) was a WWII development. Not so. WWI demonstrated the need for (1) semi-automatic fire (2) controllable, accurate fire at close range. Solution was short cartridge and the semi-automatic rifle.

Further verified that the Gew98s did not have the hold open feature during the Great War: Both WHB Smith and John Walter (The German Rifle) state that the follower wasn't changed until the trial run of Gew 98/17s. Post WWI it was commonly adopted.

Walter's 1979 references can be found on pages 116 and 117.
Olson makes no mention of the hold open feature in Gew 98 rifles that I can find.

BTW: Smith attempts to classify this rifle as a GEW 98a, but I find it nowhere else in print.

I agree this is a nice rifle, while these upgraded Gew.98's are rather common in mismatched-problem condition, it isn't too easy to find nice-original and matching ones.

Obviously this is not a Kar.98b, nor is it a transitional Gew.98, collectors often call them Gew.98M, a designation derived from Mark Wieringa article years ago, but the German designation is simply Gew.98 with rear sight to sS patrone or Gew.98 mit s. S. Visiere. Those that that said the original Imperial Gew.98 follower doesn't stop the bolt is correct, one of the easiest ways to identify a German reworked Gew.98, besides the rear sight and blued receiver, is to see if the bolt stops on empty, as it is a feature that is almost always present on interwar Gew.98's.

The "1920" has nothing to do with Versailles, it is simply a property marking done by the Germans in 1920 to differentiate rifles in their possession from rifles illegally held by civilians and paramilitary groups. The marking originates from the Spa conference, when Britain, France and the Belgians demanded the German government do something about the chaos in Germany at the time. I wrote a lengthy article about this a couple years ago for the MRJ, but I did a short version for Gunboards not long ago that outlines this marking and its history. Görtz, Jan Still and many P08 (Luger) collectors have accurately identified this marking many years ago and it is properly described in many books:

The 1920 Property Mark - Disarming of the People Act

Regarding the rifle, the barrel you show, if it has no other markings on the underside then it is a very early re-barrel. The fact that the fireproof is on the underside, rather than next to the serial is a Imperial era placement pattern, that and the fact it has no barrel code, and the suffix on the barrel is not applied speaks to this being a very early re-barrel by a depot. The stock is an Imperial ordnance spare due to lacking a cypher and the Imperial acceptance. Probably just on hand at the depot when it made its way through.

The rear sight sleeve is very early also, probably original to the first rework after the war, when they were upgraded to be dual compliant for S & sS patrone. Later the base was upgraded again with a Simson rear sight base as waffenamt e/81 is a very late inspector for Simson. They didn’t do the upgrade but rather supplied the [part to the depots that did the upgrade.

Anyway, a very nice rifle from the looks of it, when Bruce & Mike’s new book comes out in a couple months, your rifle will appreciate in value as interwar rifles in this condition are vastly underappreciated at the moment.

Thanks for the link to an excellent post on Gunboards!

I would like to take a moment to thank those of you who have posted to this thread. I am amazed at the depth of knowledge here and thankful for the time taken to share it.
So much left to learn.:dunno:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff011-1.jpg

Thanks for the education, y'all.

The title of this thread doesn't accurately reflect the true nature of the rifle, but it's a bit late to change it now!

If any more photos are desired, please let me know. A range trip has yet to happen with this rifle, but the shoulder is recovering and the temperatures seem to be moderating a bit, so maybe it won't be too long. Have several Mausers to wring out, along with some other gear, but this time of year traditionally seems to be geared more towards handgun shooting than rifle for our bunch.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff053-1.jpg