British proofed 3-42 on GB

Other than the stock and some small parts such as the follower rod, the rifle appears to be pretty much correct. Looks like it has a short pinion lock bar and marked sight cover.
It is proofed by Birmingham but I see no Private View Mark and I also see a British Broad Arrow property stamp. Not sure what this indicates, if anything.
I am not in the market but the price, depending on what the reserve is, does not seem out of line. Springfield Armory M1 Garand Lend - Lease 1942 : Other Collectible Guns at GunBroker.com

In the description there is a "cut and paste" for a link to more photos. I would be interested in hearing other views on this rifle. Joe

Joe, I think $1500 is too much, must have used oven cleaner on the wood but only the fakers can put the cartouche back on. Without more photos it is about impossible to tell if anything is original or a mix-master inside. On the rear sight lock bar ? any idea as to the type?

Robert, Looks to be a "short pinion" what do you think ??

Were you able to look at the rest of the pictures at:

SPRINGFIELD M1 GARAND LEND - LEASE pictures by firearmsforsale - Photobucket

I agree that the stock is out of the picture but barrel and receiver, bolt, uncut -3 op rod, trigger group and gas cylinder with narrow platform and front sight seal look right.

I think the "Buy Now" at $ 1500.00 is to high but at $ 1000.00 to maybe $ 1200.00 might
not be bad. To me, as I found out with 511125, finding a decent matching GHS at a reasonable price is tough. Even finding one at a not so reasonable price is still tough.
Joe

Joe, That is a Type 2 lock bar with a sleeve that was threaded to the smaller 6-40 thread. Are there any photos of the internal parts ? RCS

Just these : SPRINGFIELD M1 GARAND LEND - LEASE pictures by firearmsforsale - Photobucket

That lock bar would have fooled me.

---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------

The 2nd page on Photobucket has a few. Shows a -2 hammer,-6 housing, long fork follower rod SPRINGFIELD M1 GARAND LEND - LEASE pictures by firearmsforsale - Photobucket

That sleeved Type 2 would have fooled me. Is that done to make it appear to be a "short pinion" ?? Joe

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

That sleeve would have fooled me. Is that done to make it appear to be a "short pinion" Type 1 ???

There is a second page for those "Photobucket" pictures that show some of the internals. SPRINGFIELD M1 GARAND LEND - LEASE pictures by firearmsforsale - Photobucket Joe

---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

Having a problem posting a "Quick reply" Hope I don't end up with 3 or 4 replys. Trying again.

The "PhotoBucket" has a 2nd page of pictures that show some of the internals. SPRINGFIELD M1 GARAND LEND - LEASE pictures by firearmsforsale - Photobucket

That sleeve would have fooled me. Guess that is done to make it appear to be a short pinion. Joe

---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RCS

Joe, That is a Type 2 lock bar with a sleeve that was threaded to the smaller 6-40 thread. Are there any photos of the internal parts ? RCS

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That would have fooled me. Guess that is done to make it appear as a short pinion. I have never seen this in person. The "PhotoBucket " has a second page of photos that shows some internals.

SPRINGFIELD M1 GARAND LEND - LEASE pictures by firearmsforsale - Photobucket

Joe, The fakers normally do a better job of installing the sleeve, sometimes you need a magnify glass to spot the sleeve.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SDC10032-1.jpg

I am not seeing the sleeve, blow it up to 400%

Mark, I could be wrong, I know the Type 1 lock bars have been faked by using a sleeve in the Type 2. I know a collector in MN that bought a mid '42 rifle from a well known dealer that had the fake Type 1 lock bar.

Do I see early SA recess behind op rod right side,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I don't see a broad-arrow property mark, and the Crown/BNP is normally a blob on the bolt and receiver. I don't think there is a shot of the front of the receiver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

I don't see a broad-arrow property mark, and the Crown/BNP is normally a blob on the bolt and receiver. I don't think there is a shot of the front of the receiver.

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Looks to be a BROAD ARROW withen quotes just forward of the rear gas cylinder ring. Last stamp in string right after the square inch symbol.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ertymark-1.jpg

Joe,
That mark appears to be the crossed scepters or pennants or swords seen in the Birmingham proofs.
The date code in the left angle looks to be K indicating 1959?
Thanks for posting.

I wonder, too, if that lock bar is a real type 1.

Here is the same crossed sceptre as described by EdG, except left figure appear to be an I. Supposedly the I was not used, but it shows up on a regular basis. This is the post 1954 proof.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../21mrg3b-1.jpg

Added the Crown/BNP on the front of the receiver.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4/m7uuxk-1.jpg

And the Crown/BNP (?) on the bolt.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../33p3vaw-1.jpg

Johnny, thanks for the info.

I have seen that mark and wondered if it could be an I. The date marks are often so hard to make out that I thought maybe I was seeing a mis-formed L.
The F and K are weirdly formed (script? italic?) and are themselves hard to discern. I've seen only the F under the op rod but don't think I have seen it on the muzzle yet.
I've definitely seen the K and the L on the muzzle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EdG

Joe,
That mark appears to be the crossed scepters or pennants or swords seen in the Birmingham proofs.
The date code in the left angle looks to be K indicating 1959?
Thanks for posting.

I wonder, too, if that lock bar is a real type 1.

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Thanks Ed, I should have realized that it was the Private View mark. As far as the pinion, I havn't ever seen one that was sleeved so not quite sure what to look for. I enlarged the picture up to 400 and don't see a sleeve, but I really don't know if it would be visible or not.

The view mark was eliminated with the post 1954 Proof Law, as well as the NOT ENGLISH MAKE. The bore size, case length, and proof pressure were added in 1955.

EdG,

This is a Colt 1911A1 Lend-Leased to Canada with Canadian broad-arrow C property marks, which was sold by Canada to a British Arms merchant following WWII, returned to England, and commercially proofed at Birmingham Proof House. It shows what appears to be an I date in the crossed sceptres.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2w5j19f-1.jpg

Only Lend Lease rifles with F (1955) date codes are marked under the op rod. The muzzle marked rifles were all proofed later, around 1960, give or take a year. That's why you never see an F date code on a muzzle proofed Lend Lease Garand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

The view mark was eliminated with the post 1954 Proof Law, as well as the NOT ENGLISH MAKE. The bore size, case length, and proof pressure were added in 1955.

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Johnny, When I say "Private View Mark" I am reffering to the crossed swords, the year code at 9 o'clock, the "B" for Birmingham at 3 o'clock and the inspectors seniority code at 6 o'clock. Are we talking about the same thing or is "private View Mark" and "view mark" two different things. I am sure that what I am calling "Private View Mark" was not "eliminated with the Proof laws of 1955. What am I missing here ??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe W

Johnny, When I say "Private View Mark" I am reffering to the crossed swords, the year code at 9 o'clock, the "B" for Birmingham at 3 o'clock and the inspectors seniority code at 6 o'clock. Are we talking about the same thing or is "private View Mark" and "view mark" two different things. I am sure that what I am calling "Private View Mark" was not "eliminated with the Proof laws of 1955. What am I missing here ??

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Yes. The "private view mark", and view mark are two different markings. The view mark was used on both the 1904-1925 and the 1925-1955 proofs. The 1925 - 1955 London Proof House used crown over a circled V, and Birmingham used a crown over a circled BV. The 1955 proof marks were simplified somewhat, but added the caliber and proofing pressure. The 1955 proof law reduced the barrel markings from proof mark, view mark, and nitro proof to the nitro proof and caliber/proofing pressure marking.

Johnny, that certainly must be an I on the Colt 1911A1. What would be the mark and its meaning in the top angle above the 4?

Tom, the only date code marks other than F (always under the op rod on the chamber) that I myself have seen on Lend Lease era Garands are the K and L and all have been on the muzzle. I have seen some L codes that are very clearly L but I've seen some that looked as if the L were scrunched to almost form a V leaning to its right. I hope that description makes sense.

Has anyone seen a London proofed Lend Lease era Garand stamped on the muzzle? I have seen London proofs on Garand muzzles that are outside of the Lend Lease period but very few of those.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

Yes. The "private view mark", and view mark are two different markings. The view mark was used on both the 1904-1925 and the 1925-1955 proofs. The 1925 - 1955 London Proof House used crown over a circled V, and Birmingham used a crown over a circled BV. The 1955 proof marks were simplified somewhat, but added the caliber and proofing pressure. The 1955 proof law reduced the barrel markings from proof mark, view mark, and nitro proof to the nitro proof and caliber/proofing pressure marking.

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As I read Scott Duffs article "Garands in the Kings Service" American Rifleman, Apr. 2002, Duff shows a drawing of the "crossed swords, scepters or whatever, with an "F", "B" and a number 1. He describes these markings stating that they indicate the rifle" was "VIEWED" during the year 1955 by the Chief Inspector. Duff further states that year code starts with the letter "A" in 1950 and progresses (letter I omitted) to "z" in 1974. The letters begin again with "A" in 1975, but the crossed swords framework was changed to a segmented circle." He writes about this marking under the heading "Private View Mark".
Based on Duffs writting it appeared to me, and I always thought, that the use of the crossed swords, date code and inspectors mark was still being used at least into the 1970's, under the proof laws of 1955 and this marking is referred to as either the "Private View Mark" or just the "view mark". Am I misreading something and the "view mark" and/or "Private View Mark" is something else entirly ??? If so, could you explain to me just what a "Private View Mark" is and how it differs from the "View mark". Thanks

By the way, the rifle that was the subject of this post ended up selling for $ 1300.00 to the single bidder.

In 1975 the private view mark was changed to the segmented circle you describe, like a pie cut in three pieces, then in 1980 the segmented lines were removed but the circle contained the same information. Then in 1985 they went back to the crossed sceptres.

As in my previous post, up until 1955 the View mark was stamped on the three major components of the firearm. The barrel would have had three stamps indicating proof, nitro proof, and view. The proof and nitro proof were combined, and the view mark was eliminated. The "Private View Mark" containing the date and inspector were retained as described above.

Thanks, I guess I understand about as well as I ever will. Ever since passing 70 years old I have gotten a bit dense. LOL

Well, not sure what else I can add. The private view mark contained information on the date of the proofing, and the view mark was put on the three major components after final proofing and everything was found to pass the proofing procedure. I suppose the view mark was found to be unnecessary and was dropped in the 1955 proof law.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

Well, not sure what else I can add. The private view mark contained information on the date of the proofing, and the view mark was put on the three major components after final proofing and everything was found to pass the proofing procedure. I suppose the view mark was found to be unnecessary and was dropped in the 1955 proof law.

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I think what was confusing to me was that I was not thinking of the BNP proof mark on the top of the chamber or the stamp on the bolt lug as "View" marks, but as "proof" marks, required by the Rules of Proof. As Duff stated " The proofing dies, however were no match for the hardened steel of the M1 Garands receiver and bolt, and wore in short order. Only a small fraction of Lend-Lease rifles show these proofs or parts of them; most carry only a dent or smudge. Many show no evidence at all, suggesting that both houses eventually gave up the attempt."

The BNP really isn't a view mark. The view mark was applied showing the proofing was successful, as prior to 1955 there was a proof and a nitro proof mark. The BNP replaced the view mark, proof mark, and nitro proof mark on the barrel.

The London Proof House replaced the previous three marks with a single arm holding a scimitar over NP on the barrel. On this London Proof House 1911A1 proofed barrel the NP proof is to the left of the caliber marking, and rotated 90 degrees clockwise.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2luxdgw-1.jpg