No4(T) Deal

Well I have finally realised one of my dreams and added a No4 (T) to my collection, it is a 1943 BSA Shirley from the Y prefixed 5 digit ser No the only other place I can find the M47C is next to the front bedding screw, it was also FTR'd in 48, the only thing I am missing is the scope tin and its contents as I already have a nice scouting telescope, anyway Im happy with it, here are a few pics to peruse
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0286-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0288-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0287-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0289-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0290-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0291-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0292-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0294-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0293-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0295-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0298-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0297-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0299-1.jpg

BEAUTIFUL! Congradulations! Great photos.

Congrats! Very nice indeed.

That TR, the S and the stake marks look to me as though they've been done after the FTR of 1948 and the pads just don't seem to match the rifle somehow. Call me an old cynic who's seen just a few of them.................. And that bracket looks..............

I don't want to pee on anyone's cornflakes but I'm 100% with PL on this one. The front pad looks suspect to me, the rear pad screws have been crudely filed off, the TR looks much sharper than the rifle serial. The butt looks like a sanded original to me, but there is a tiny gap between the butt & the butt socket suggesting to me (FWIW) that the butt either isn't original to the rifle or has at least been 'off & on again'. The screws on both pads look to have been staked recently & those on the front pad are bare metal with no finish. There are what look to be machining marks just about visible on the front pad that are not typical at least of the few originals I've seen......

The transit case looks like an original that's been repainted, but then had the well worn original handles re-fitted. The scope is fine. Not sure where the bracket hails from but it is possible that it may be more likely Eastern Europe than Gainsborough or Glasgow....
Were you given any provenance with the rifle? It might be worth asking the vendor a few more questions over the issues we've raised here; tho' that's only my suggestion for what it's worth. I've been totally wrong often enough before!

ATB

Thank you for your input both Peter and Roger you mention the stampings and stake marks looking "newer" I think that must be a trick of the light because in the flesh they all seem to blend in well, however I do value your opinions especially as both of you are world authorities on the subject.
As for provanance all I have is the word of the chap that I did the deal with, which I have no reason what soever to doubt, he told me that the rifle came from the estate of a very well known ex chief constable and was told when he purchased it 2 years ago that it was all correct, I was also told that Peter had looked at it and said it was a nice rifle im not trying to catch anybody out all I really want to do is show off my new aqisition.

I don't have anything to add to the No4T discussion, but I would love to see the rifle in the metal case next to it in the first picture (L96A1 perhaps?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian B

I don't have anything to add to the No4T discussion, but I would love to see the rifle in the metal case next to it in the first picture (L96A1 perhaps?)

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Very close it isin fact an accuracy international AW which is fitted with an issue L17A1 issue Schmidt and bender scope I may have some pics about somewhere or if you search YouTube for me pe4king you will see vid of my boy using it

I can't form much of an opinion as only two photos are in good focus (and one of those is of the coiled sling). Stock has been scrubbed some. Otherwise? Nope, not gonna step in.

Peking, in view of the serious doubts expressed about the rifle, are you STILL sure about it? With that provenance (?) it should be easy to verify. You can be rest assured that it certainly wasn't THIS Peter who saw it and verified it unless it was dark an I was wearing a hood. The comments have been passed on what the forumers have seen - and the camera cannot lie..............

That bracket is like no pother I have ever encountered too........

Here's the acid test. Collimate the grat to the optical axis of the telescope and then mount the bracket and bore sight it.

Peter I'm taking on board what your saying , and this has raised some concerns which I shall be speaking to the previous owner about to see if I can get any more info regarding its history, all I know about these rifles is from what I have read or have been told, therefore I do greatly value the opinions and experience of others who know a lot more than me on the subject.
All I can say is wait out, until I can find out more info.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pe4king

As for provanance all I have is the word of the chap that I did the deal with

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Go back to the seller, armed with the above comments and see what he has to say and see if he offers a refund, not too hard to try and trace back a firearm due to the national data base if he is unwilling to co-operate, if its gone from dealer to dealer then not as easy.


( posted without seeing the post above)

Just another observation. I've never seen a No.4T marked with (Fazakerley) FTR 48 markings engraved on the left side of the body. Anyone else care to comment?

I've got some new leather handles for your chest if you need a set.

A quick update the rifle came from the collection of the late Chris Barber.
Peter, Sorry it was not you that had looked at the rifle that was me getting wires crossed.
Brian How much are the set of handles ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pe4king

the collection of the late Chris Barber.

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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, pe4king but the collection of the late Chris Barber was mainly made up of fakes (and not very good ones) I was lucky that I was able to return one of his knock ups a few years ago.

I wont go into it, but it opened up a whole can of worms when I was trying to trace the origins of the rifle I had at the time, one of the things was that chris was using the names of a few noted collectors who had verified his rifles etc, only problem was that one of the names associated with his rifles was dead before Chris had started collecting.

I was lucky but a lot of people lost thousands, if I was you I would ask for a refund I,m sure other members will say the same thing.

Hello pe4king ..

That name seemed to ring a bell with me…. :)

You might want to try our Google CSE custom search engine located in the top right corner below the words "Advanced Search". It only searches our site using Google techniques and can be quite efficient. For example, in your case, type in the words chris barber and see what happens .. ;)

It turned up this older post ... ;)

No. 4 "Carbine" (click here)

Regards,
Doug

There is no smilie for big gulp im just checking if this is in fact the case, as I said to a friend about where it came from, he said he would make same phone calls and thats the name he came back with, I have just asked the previous owner if thats the name he has and im waiting for an answer.

From the stable of Chris Barber eh! I have a funny feeling that the name has featured on this forum in the past - and not in relation to jazz music either. I'd be knocking at the trading standards peoples door early tomorrow. But I could be wrong............

I sell the handles for $25 a set plus postage.

One thing I didn't quite understand about this rifle, is, if it has been altered, why didn't they line up the TR on the wrist more convincingly?
Also I wondered about the bracket - only in as much as it doesn't look like the other obvious repros out there and to my untutored eye looks almost 'real'.

So where were this Chris Barber's rifles generally sold through - a particular dealer/auction house?

For a while Chris used to stall 'The International' Arms Fair in Brum. When he knew he was dying he invited a number of collectors up for a big sell off. Several forum members here were present. I saw a number of items of, shall we say, 'doubtful' provenance, but by no means all of Chris' stuff was fake. I came away with two beautiful hooked quillon 1907 bayonets as well as a very nice SMLE No2 MkIV*.

ATB

But tellingly DRP, you didn't come home with the saddle-ring No4 carbine or the No4T that's the subject of this thread. A word of advice though...... When you go to sell the hooked quillion bayonets, I wouldn't tell anyone where they came from !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(all said in jest of course...)

Actually DPL, one's already sold & the other I'm keeping! And I did look hard at them for signs of weld etc., before taking the plunge............

The No2 MkIV* was nice. WW1 dated body & in lovely order, but alas, smoothbored! For this reason it came at the right price. I kept quiet about the fact that I've got a brand new 22 SMLE barrel in the gunroom! I gather 22's are off ticket in France & I did wonder if once I've rebarrelled it I might keep it over there. However, I've no doubt the rules & regs over the channel are such that it won't be quite as simple as just taking it over. It would be nice to have my own functional SMLE actually on The Somme though..........

ATB