selection of a n°4 to create a n°4 "sniper"

I've the opportunity to acquire a n°4 that is almost "out of the box". She is coded M47C from 1944.:)
If I'm right, some of them where selected to be equipped with a n°32.
If the one I'm expecting to buy has not been selected during the II world war, does it means that she didn't meet the requirements at that time? or maybe, she was not tested to be transform as a n°4T?
I understand that during the war, they didn't want to lose time to accurate a rifle, and they selected the best of them directly from the factory.
But nowadays, if we work on a rifle a bit, can we meet the same requirements that were expected during this period and then have a correct n°4 "sniper"?
:wave:

There's no way I'd convert an "almost 'out of the box'" 1944 BSA. It's rarer than a matching No.4 Mk.I (T)! (At least in my travels.) Closest I've come in British WWII production is a Fazackerly. If it's unmolested after all these years, leave it be.

Didn't we just go through this discussion?

I may be a bit off base on this but it's my understanding that the rifles that shot a bit better that the rest during testing at the factory were set aside for possible conversion and were marked with the TR on the left side of the butt socket. They were again test fired at H&H and those that met the requirements there were then converted the sniper configuration. Not all with the TR marking went on to become No.4T's, although I've yet to see one it's possible to run across a standard No.4 with the TR marking. Just because the rifle your looking to buy is most new does'nt mean it will shoot any better than one several thousand rounds down the tube. I also agree with JM, if it's made it this long in that condition theres no use in ruining it now by making a repro T out of it.

It's rarer than a matching No.4 Mk.I (T)!
Really?! I'm surprised.
I believed it was a common Lee Enfield n°4 mkI .
Just because the rifle your looking to buy is most new does'nt mean it will shoot any better than one several thousand rounds down the tube.
I agree, I will know if it shoots as well as she is nice only the day I will buy it..but at that time she is really nice.

It's not unheard of to find decent "all Savage", Post-WWII Fazackerlys and Long Branch rifles, but after all these years, I have yet to lay hands on a "for sure" as manufactured (including sub-contracted parts) BSA or Maltby. It's mostly due to the fact that these rifles were maintained for years afterwards as the primary service rifle.

Lou Cypher, I joined this site as it is known to have members that are experts in military weapons and the Lee Enfield forums amongst others has some of the worlds foremost.

If people here are advising you to do or not do something it is worth giving serious consideraton.

If you are looking to build what I call a "fake" No4 T go ahead, however to use the rifle you mention is a waste of a great BSA and that would be a shame.

Do what you must however to "violate" such a rare rifle...... well may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your arm pits.

Nothing personal.:nono:

If I was to want to build a fake/reproduction custom, I would first look at the tons of sporterized Enfields that line the pawn shop walls. That is where my project would start but by the time you rebuild it accurately what do you have? I have a shop here locally that has a real No.4T without the scope for $875.00. I would say you could buy that rifle as cheaply as making your reproduction and then buy the proper scope and you will have the real deal. With that said, it is your money and it is your gun, do what makes you happy and have fun doing it. Just be prepared to suffer the wrath of the purists who wish to preserve history. A 2 door 57 Chevy convertible is cool and to build one from a sedan frame with an aftermarket body is cool too but it is never really a 57 2 door convertible and if that fact is OK with you then I say go for it.

For the best of both worlds, I would suggest buy a no-gunsmithing scope mount e.g. from Brian Dick and a vintage Weaver scope (which looks a bit like the N32 scope).
I did that, got bored with it, and now have it back to iron sights with no harm done.

Wouah! I didn't want to shock you guys. I have to explain a bit more my point of view.
I'm a purist, I already have a M47c in a mint condition. I'm participating to a service rifle competition for which you must have a rifle that fit externally with the infantry model with the ironsight. My first n°4 is like she was when the tommy came in France to fight for freedom. This rifle remains untouched, even the trigger is like it was 70 years ago (heavy for target shooting). The only variable on which I'm producing the most of my effort, is the cartridge, sorry I don't shoot any more the MKVII cordite loaded. And this rifle shoots very well.
But now, I want to shoot the "modified service rifle" category. So either I fit a target sight, like a parker hale sight or, a scope. The problem is that I felt in love of the n°4(T), what a shape! But I don't get the money to buy one. So the solution I have, is to built a n°4 scope mounted. doing this, I must keep in mind that every thing on the rifle must be as it was on the original model. That means for me, I have to equip this rifle with a Mr Payne's bracket, a repro or original n°32 scope (it will be an original).
So, even if for some of you, it's a crime to do this, just understand that my goal is not to do violate this rifle, of course she will never get the TR and the T, but she will be equipped in the state-of-the-art.
Finding a M47c around here is not so rare, either it comes from the old resistants that give or sell them, or many of them were" forgotten" in many farms.
I respect your advise. Let's see what the future will be in France for the gun's owner..

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Originally Posted by Lou Cypher

Finding a M47c around here is not so rare, either it comes from the old resistants that give or sell them, or many of them were" forgotten" in many farms.

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Y'all (encompassing several countries) may have one of the last remaining small stashes of "as issued in WWII" rifles on the planet, due to the battles fought on your land. Don't think they're so common, just because you been seeing them all your life. Anymore, to the rest of us, they're rare reminders of an important time.

A good detailed photo study of these relics would be quite valuable!

We do still have a lot of Enfields and other small arms still stashed here.
Some never used Savages in new condition were about a little while age, got to play with one.
I know a full box of others not sure of make were found very recently not very far from me.
I know of others still hidden.
A friend found a Beretta pistol in his barn wall 2 weeks ago.
He was told he could keep it.

With the fire arms laws changing and the 303, 8mm Mauser etc with other rounds and arms being moved to a lesser category, with less restrictions, more of the arms will start to appear.
The changes will come into effect in just under 2yrs, if not sooner.

Still, do value what you have. All the Lee-Enfields in this country have been sportered, modified, Bubba'd or reworked one way or another. I own exactly TWO Number 4 Rifles which have not undergone this; ONE is unfired, original and has no serial number..... and the other looks as if a Tank used it for parking practice!

A good friend of mine, a serious ornithologist, was once in a house up on the Great Northern peninsula of Newfoundland, talking with the homeowner about the local birds. The local grabbed a shotgun, ran outside and shot down a bird which was flying overhead, brought it inside and started to pluck it in order to cook it. The bird was "nothing unusual", my friend was told, "they's lots of them".

Yes, there were lots of those birds THERE. But they were the LAST breeding stock of that type of bird in the WORLD. Anywhere else, they are extremely rare and are extinct in more than 90% of their former range.

And that appears to be what you have in France: the last stock of unmolested Number 4 Rifles.

Too bad they don't breed.......
.
If I were to build up a rifle for this type of shooting, I think I would start with a Bubba Number 4 with a good barrel. It has been long enough now that we UNDERSTAND how and why it works the way it does. Our modern MATERIALS for accurising are just as good as the old ones and they are a LOT faster and easier to use. You get the rifle and you restore it; as you do this you will learn a LOT about the rifle itself. You get it shooting accurately and then you build your "sniper". You have a rifle which is just as good (or better), you have done the work yourself and you KNOW that you have not harmed one of the last remaining unchanged rifles.

You mention that you have given up shooting Cordite ammunition. Great move! Those primers were awful! I am shooting my Lee-Enfields with home-made ammunition using a Sierra 180-grain Pro-Hunter bullet at 2250 ft/sec muzzle velocity, which I find to be extremely accurate. Seating is to the over-all length of a Ball cartridge. It works VERY well and it is only marginally slower than Service velocity.

Good luck!
.

I did a mistake by using the term mint to define my LE. I've seen on this website what "mint" means Lawrance Ordnance - Fazakerly No.4 Mk.II .303 Rifle
And my LE is obviously not in that state.
:wave:

No, but it should be as it was when in France during 1944! You have reasonable expectations that your arms actually were issued to front line troops. As opposed to just being used for basic training, parade use or never got issued at all. It's a miniature "time capsule".

I hope the container loads of rifles still new and stashed in barns are in better condition than the No1 rifle weve got here, found by a researcher trawling through a barn on the stop-line 8 miles from Dunkirk a few months ago. Just about identifiable as a No1 - but more remarkable is the fact that it is a Mk1! Less the sliding charger bolt and magazine that were probably ditched during the retreat. I'll post some photos if anyones really interested

I'd like to see it.


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That No.4Mk.2 at Lawrence Ordnance looks strangely familiar!

Here are pictures taken on a French forum.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nfield1a-1.jpg
Shot at 2012-05-10
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nfield1b-1.jpg
Shot at 2012-05-10
These pictures were taken in France. Not bad? ins't it?
I can also open an other post.

DPL,
The area around Dunkirk was not that far behind the front line in the First World War & these rear areas were crammed full of billets, training areas etc etc. Is it possible the rifle could be a left over from 25 years earlier? Just a thought....

Lou,
My mouth is watering! Any T's in there?!?

ATB

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My mouth is watering! Any T's in there?!?

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I don't know, it seems not.

My S.M.L.E and my Longbranch both came out of the wood work here.
Both in great condition.

I've seen this picture before and it was captioned as Italian stocks prior to disposal as opposed to wartime container dropped stores to the French - or am I missing something?

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I've seen this picture before and it was captioned as Italian stocks prior to disposal as opposed to wartime container dropped stores to the French - or am I missing something?

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Sorry Mr Laidler, I guess that you're missing something. Look carefully the crates, there is a lot
of information on it, to know for whom and where this crates were sent.

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Originally Posted by Lou Cypher

Here are pictures taken on a French forum.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nfield1a-1.jpg
Shot at 2012-05-10
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nfield1b-1.jpg
Shot at 2012-05-10
These pictures were taken in France. Not bad? ins't it?
I can also open an other post.

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They need to come home where they belong ;)

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I've seen this picture before and it was captioned as Italian stocks prior to disposal as opposed to wartime container dropped stores to the French - or am I missing something?

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Peter

Didn't Henry Krank get hold of a load of the Italian No 4's?

As my 5 year ols son would say. "oh maaaaaaaan" . Those were taken in the last few years? How do we get our mitts on them? Wish I could find a barn like that...

That looks like a lot, but I reckon they would not last a week at a commercial distributor if they are in good condition.

At the time the pictures were taken, there was also 1 million of 303 british cartridges in their metal boxes, boxes looking like tea box, sealed...with the 50 rounds bandoleers in.
What a barn..?, it was not a barn..:wave:

I can see that one crate is marked PARIS but I'm just saying that these pics have been published as showing disposals from Italian (Navy?) stockpiles recently.

To put 1,000,000 - a million rounds into some sort of perspective, you could put that amount of ammo into the back of a Bedford truck, and it would only reach the top of the sides. You probably wouldn't drive it far

Not quite the same Pete, this is the lot you are thinking of.Attachment 33563

Yep, maybe I'm mistaken but I have seen the picture before as I remember the hand holding the clip-board just visible in the left hand side. Maybe it's the Arms storeman and the Orderly Officer doing the weekly stock and serial number check!

You can just hear it now............. Orderly Officer to Cpl Smith: '....well, it's Friday lunchtime Cpl Smith. Let's crack on with the number count and serial number check and you can nip off early for the weekend as soon as we've finished......'

leave the gun as is im sure you can find a bubbaed gun(a gun that has been hacked up) i know i have restored a few now to what they where and i got one bubba really had his way with with a cut barrel this is sadly too far for me to restore but it will make a nice .22/303 sporter (coyotes watchout :) )

id love to find a original no.4T but i do have two no 4 mk 1's and one has not been fired since my great grandfather brought it back home in 1945 the other was bought after the war and has been shot quite a bit

i would not shoot any mk 7 ball its more collectible then anything i have qite a bit of it and i still will not shoot it although i have in the past and they do tubmble when the hit the target (deer) just as intended with the light nose

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Mr. Cypher- assuming you weren't going to slap the rifle in the old drill press

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You're absolutely right:)
So we have 2 threads melting a bit, I close mine. I will take in consideration your advises, It could be a nice adventure to build up a n°4 "sniper" from spare parts. I've already seen a P14 completely rebuilt with different parts, the result was very nice.
May I suggest to an admin to open a new thread with the parts of this one treating of the SMLE.
:wave:

I've moved Peter's post and created a new thread germane to that subject created..

SMLE found by an author researching the fighting and retreat to Dunkirk

Regards,
Doug

See if you can find a TR stamped action that was not converted. They're out there. I have one that was not and yet it displays the Enfield examiner's marks on top of the butt socket and the "S" on the cutoff boss.

I would love to spend a couple of days breaking down one of those pallets.