Gun Show Bust

I have not been to a Gun Show in a few months so I decided to drive 1-1/2 hours to a show today. I did not see a single Enfield at today's show. As a matter of fact, I can count on one hand the number of milsurp rifles for sale. I have even noticed that a couple of the regular vendors have started to sell everything on-line and were not even at the show.

I did see a Bren Mk2 parts kit for $995 and a Wiselite Sterling Semi-auto for $465. It was not a complete waste of a trip though, I did come home with 96 rounds of .303 for $30.00.

I am hoping that the Enfield market has not dried up around me!!

Sorry to hear that. I have noticed a dearth of good Lee Enfields in local gun shows over the past year. If you want US or Russian milsurps, then there is no shortage, though.

I'm new to Enfields, sort of, I mean to say I recently acquire dmy first but have seen and shot them here and there over the years. They seem to be everywhere. As well prices vary widely dependingon whereone encounters them. It's almost as if they're not that desirable unless you're the odd bird who really wants one.

An observation from south-eastern PA on gun shows and the Enfield market:

It seems to me based on the last year of local and regional shows I have attended that there are a number of older sported Enfield rifles in dubious condition that are very cheap. Most seem to someone’s old deer rifle. Most are common dates and configurations. Spare parts are not as cheap or as plentiful as they were a decade ago, making the decision to restore a rifle a much more dubious proposition. These rifles typically have less then stellar bores and really are not good candidates for restoration. These rifles are priced very low but do not seem to sell that often.

Less common, but still about are reasonable examples of surplus No1, No 3, No4 and No 5 rifles, not in the best of condition but still in decent enough condition to buy if you were looking for a representative example of such a rifle. The problem with these rifles is the price, pre 2004 they were 100 dollar or less rifles, now they seem to be priced in the 250 to 350 dollar region, at that price they will not sell very often. Added to that in the 2004 time frame ammunition was available at a reasonable price, now it is rare and difficult to find in plinking quantity for anything less then 50 to 60 cents a round.

The very nice higher end guns, 1955 No4 Mk II new rifles, excellent Longbranch rifles, like-new Savage South African marked No 4 rifles, like new Australian rifles etc are out there, but the asking prices are set by Gunbroker and as such are too high to typically sell at a show. The internet has affected sellers’ price expectations, and while it draws stuff out of closets for sale, deals one used to find at shows seem to be but a dim memory.

Stepping back and taking the long view (first show I attended was in 1984, 28 years ago) it seems to be the end of the cheap imports that allowed many of us to amass large collections very cheaply in the 1986 to 2006 time period. As there are no cheap imports the price has risen to reflect the limited supply. The economic slow down, which shows no sign of abatement here in PA despite the happy noise we hear out of the squawk box has drastically reduced the amount of play monies guys have. Prices seem high to an old timer but the appreciation has stalled and stabilized at a sufficiently high price to put off most impulse buyers. The current price point and lack of cheap shooting ammunition has halted new collectors from coming in to the market like they were in the 1984 to 2004 time period.

Now some of the dealers I am friends with are hoping that the centennial of WWI will change this and see the prices of WWI rifles climb again. I very much doubt it as the bad economy shows no sign of turning, at least where I live and I doubt that WWI will have the draw that the Civil war and WWII still enjoy. US M1903 Springfields in good condition are already very expensive and the young guys I know that are into historic arms are much more into WWII rifles then WWI rifles. Also US arms still seem to draw the majority of interest here in the US of A. There was no burst of interest in British arms with the centennial of the Boer war or Spanish arms with the centennial of the Spanish-American war, I doubt we will see many new collectors of English arms due to the WWI centennial, at least here on the east coast.

Getting back to the shows, I think that ultimately the really nice guns are increasingly going on Gunbroker. One of my dealer friends who is also a competitive shooter pretty much uses his shop to buy local guns to put on Gunbroker, he gets much more money and has a much faster turn around time. This has affected collectables to a great extent and is why I think one sees fewer uncommon rifles at decent prices at larger shows. Small shows where local guys can set up and sell there stuff still show deals from time to time, but as the Internet slowly takes over this will fade as sell, there simply are fewer and fewer folks that do not take advantage of the internet to price and sell their items.

One point of view to consider

Frederick303,
Excellent analysis ! I agree and would add that your synopsis of the topic applies equally where I live.

A few more thoughts on old time Gun shows here in PA and those states that allow individual transfers without a great deal of hassle:

In the case of easy long arms sales (i.e. there is not a lot of expense or hassle as in PA), when there is cheap ammunition out there and significant amounts of inexpensive surplus rifles for sale, there are/were guys that buy guns just to shoot them, play with them and then sell them off to get the next gun. When Enfield’s were cheap guys would do just that, buy an Enfield, shoot it for a bit and then sell it off to buy the next play gun. The fact that Enfields were cheap and ammunition was around meant a large number of these guns went through those commercial paths. Those of us that collected rifles really benefited from this, as the guys that bought these guns were generally just looking to get their money back and not make a significant profit. Unless one had a local dealer that had a significant stock of Enfields (none in any place I have lived), such rifles either walking through local shows or on the tables of individuals was where one would have a chance to find those variants you did not have at a bargain prices. It was not that many years ago when a small show might have 5 to 8 Enfields for sale, either walking around or on someone’s table. At a large show such as Forks of the Delaware or Harrisburg the number might be quite staggering. As the asking prices were typically at or just slightly above what dealer could buy them from distributors for, they had little interest. The fact that some uncommon Enfields existed in the mass of Enfields for sale at such shows was overlooked by those that made their money by turning guns over for profit, leaving such arms to be picked over by the collectors. Before the internet sales picked up this was the only way for an Enfield collector to find uncommon stuff, and when you found a nice item it was generally very cheap.

Once cheap surplus ammunition stopped around 2005 and new rifle imports dried up around a year later this entire market mechanism stopped. The shooters moved on to Mosin-Nagants and other guns that could be bought and shot cheaply. Now there are always some guns coming on the market, but far fewer, and as there are no real imports dealers looking to build their stock up are looking at them as well. By the time a non-dealer gets to the show any real killer “deal” or rare Enfield variant is likely to have been picked up by a dealer who will sell it on Gunbroker. I see nothing wrong with that, it is the free market in action, but it has lead to the decline in deals at gun shows. There is still the occasional deal to be had, though they are now a rarity.

For a period it seemed that that the bad economy was helping as folks were selling off their less prized possessions and for many that meant the odd Enfield they had bought cheap years ago. Four plus years out from the start of the recession and this mechanism seems to have pretty much over. The nice guns coming out to shows are now from guys that know what they have; in those cases where they are selling for economic reasons they pretty much need to get the full freight the market will allow.

Now I have to say while the good old days are pretty much gone, Gunbroker has meant that items I had never seen in 20 years of going to shows are suddenly available. Yes you have to pay the going rate, but in the old days of shows alone often you would never even see such a rifle in person, except for the occasional museum. Further with sites such as this, the information that is out there is just incredible, even with all of the reference books (and I have them all) the knowledge available today dwarfs what was available even 10 years ago. All of that education is free. So one golden era is over and a new different yet just as interesting era has begun.

For the good old days of cheap guns and real deals at almost ever show to come back we need to see the last mother load of Enfield rifles, the vast stocks held in India come onto the market. There are a lot of them, nearly a million and there must be significant stocks of shootable .303 still to be had on the Indian subcontinent. If that happens, Gun shows will pick up once again for the US-American Enfield collector.

Looks like I'll keep going to Yard/Garage Sales and asking if they have any old Military stuff around... Do you guys have any thoughts on Yugo Capture K98 Mausers". Seems like German Mausers are price trending at about 800 to 1K and rising for non-matching parts while a refurbished (rebarreled sometimes) Yugo Capture K98 is about $300. Is this market Yugo Capture or even Russian Capture segment likely to see a price increase?

Go to the Gunboard forums and check out the Kar98K board. That site is where all the real K98K gurus hang out at.

A good suggestion and something I have been doing already. For the record I'm not bagging on the Lee Enfield with the question here in anyway. I merely felt the thread was taking a conversational turn toward the generalalities of the overall Mil . Surp. Collecting in todays times & economy and posed a thought. I can keep it all Lee Enfield in this section of the board if I am commiting a Faux Pas de Noob.

Sir,

I was not chiding you in any way; it is just that unless there are a few die-hard Kar98K fans on this board, I doubt that any of us would have a real feel for the Kar98K and associated Mauser designs price points. I would note that rifle collecting in the internet age has become increasingly specialized. My reference to Gunboard forums was that of all the sites related to Kar98K rifles I have seen; that site seems to have the most authorities on the topic of German WWII rifles and associated Mauser rifles. I think that John Walls used to post on that site, and he is about the closest thing to Ian Skennerton that the Mauser Fans have. Of course I could be wrong, there may well be a better site, but given my limited knowledge on the topic I would go there if I wanted a serious question answered.

What little I know of that market is as follows:

The Russian capture and Yugo reworked K98K rifles have seen a similar rise in prices to the Enfield rifles in the past 10 years. I seem to recall being able to buy really nice Russian captures and Yugo rifles around 1998~1999 for around 150 to 200 dollars, now I understand they are 350 to 400 (or slightly more) dollar rifles if the bore is indecent condition. Matching rifles that went for 500 dollars 10 years ago are now the 900 to 1200 dollar rifles, depending on the rarity and correctness of the rifle.

The really high money in Kar98K rifles in all matching, non-sanded examples with features that collectors want. Just as a correct 1941 Longbranch rifle with early features would draw a tidy sum, so too a similar dated Kar98K with what are considered rare features would draw a large sum of money, from what I have heard that sum can roughly be doubled for collectable German rifle compared to a equivalent British rifle. Post war issued rifles seem to have a lot less interest among the high end collectors and as such the prices for these rifles are markedly less, as is the price for mismatched rifles.

One of the main differences I have observed in German collecting is that the collectors all want to have rifles that are as close to original factory issued as possible. There is a similar mind set in US M1903 and M1 collectors. In that regard the Enfield collectors seem to be similar to the Mosin Nagant collectors, in as much as both fraternities seem to enjoy and value reworked rifles to a degree which is not present in the M1, Kar98K and M1903 collecting worlds. This seems to be related to three separate facets:

1) Enfield rifles path through the military world has can be traced through the copious markings that accompany issue and reworks, Kar98K rifles did not seem to have similar marking applied, very little is known about the rework facilities and markings applied. Because of various scandals, reported data in the main reference book (Laws books) is subject to some debate.

2) The fact that many details of Enfield use have been revealed by armourers like Peter Laidler of the UK, Kim Williams of New Zealand, an armourer that used to post by the name of Smith (forget first name) from Australia, as well as a few folks that have posted with armourer experience from Canada and Ireland (not necessarily on this site, I am thinking back to the days of the old Gun and Knife forum). The few postings from a single German WWII armourer I know of have all been second hand(related by his nephew) and given that these early 2000’s posting were 55 year old recollections, very limited in the usable detail. There are no similar detailed first hand authorities available for the Kar98K folks like we have had in the past 15 years for the Enfield; hence that aspect of the rifle’s history has been largely lost, leaving condition and originality of markings to be the primary determination of value.

3) The Enfield saw wide use after WWII and Enfield collectors are interested in this post war history, whereas the primary association and interest in Kar98K collectors seem to be the use of this rifle in the second great international debate. Thus a 1943 Fazakerley with a post WWII South African markings would be seen a very interesting collectable in Enfield quarters with no loss in value and perhaps a very slight premium to the right guy, where as a 1943 BYF Mauser that had been cut for a French sling post war would be seen a lesser example compared to a similar non-post war modified BYF Kar98K. I have actually seen Kar98K collectors sneer at such rifles, something I have never seen in Enfield collecting.

Because the prices have generally been a lot higher in the Kar98K world, (at least until recently) and the price of rifles is so dependent on being “factory original” there seems to be a lot more faking going on in the Kar98K world, mostly related to assembling “matching rifles”. At shows you will see folks trying to find Mauser parts with the serial number that they need to correct a mismatched K98K. You will note on the websites devoted to K98K discussions on what the correct serial number sequences should be (4 digit, last two digit or no digits at all) v.s. the year of production. You will also see discussions on what venders supplied what company, as if the waffenampt marking is off or the factory code is on that is not seen on that manufacturers rifle, then the rifle is not matching and the price falls drastically. The discussions on the blue and how to tell the correct finish are very detailed. As such unless you really know your rifles I think it is a lot easier to get badly burned in Kar98K collecting if you are buying “correct” rifles. The numbers of fake Kar98K sniper rifles is apparently enormous. There have been major scandals in the Mauser collecting world with major authorities having been found assembling fakes, as such the debates on correct and incorrect tend to be a bit more heated than on this site.

That is my limited knowledge or understanding of this topic, but I think most of the above is not far off the truth. I have a few of these rifles and like them, but I have found the Kar98K and US collectors to be a far more contentious group of collectors, for reasons that I am not quite sure of, though it may well be the larger amounts of money involved.

I'm also from south eastern PA and my take on the gun shows isn't that different. I've gotten pretty lucky at the last two I went to but one of them was a purchase off a guy walking around with it. In York, I found a No4 MKI in good condition, price $300. Only other one in the show was in rougher shape for $350. There were no other milsurps at the show that interested me. A very beat up MAS 36 for $1100 (I have no idea what's going through that sellers head), the same old dozen very overpriced and beat up Enfields and Arisaka's that I've seen traveling from Lancaster to Harrisburg, and a few Yugo Mausers. It's been slim pickings. Lancaster's gun show as a complete bust, other than the rack of beat up stuff, nothing except the usual Mosin Nagants just out of the crate. After walking around the entire show, went back to the first No4 MKI and made a deal that both he and I were satisfied with. Harrisburg was a lot better than both but I had one item on my list a Swiss K31 and while I hadn't seen one since a very overpiced one at Allentown, I found one on a dealers table that was priced OK and the one a fellow was carrying around that I got a great deal on.

The gun shops have dried up, Cabela's has dried up. I'm thinking no one is either turning them in to sell or they are getting bought up as fast as they put them out.

BDL had a good supply of South African No4,s at a very good price, infact while importing a rifle for myself I bought 3 x No4s from Brian to make up the numbers, good honest used rifles all shot OK, I had to recoupe the initial cost (wasnt very hard plust the postage and some of the export licence fee etc), I sold them all, but I did struggle,and they went for 230 pounds, I thought they would fly out like hot cakes but it seems folk want new ones or new looking ones, and wonder why there new prized Enfield (no one knows who stuck the new varnished timber on and sprayed it with gloss paint) shoots with the accuracy of a shotgun? always defeats the object in my eyes as its a Milsurp Rifle so its going to have a few dents, scratches, repairs etc, but they shoot well and were looked after in service by qualified and well trained Armourers.

It was only on friday that a member in the club had paid 280 pounds, for a sporterized No4 and not very good one, I was in shock more than anything else, this is kind you see in auction go for 50 pounds or less, I was lost for words, I could of built him one for half the cost of what he paid, like the old saying "some mothers do have them"

I'm running out of No.4's here after all these years and 100's of rifles. I've only got 3 of the South African issue Faz's left, 2 in walnut that are matching and one pretty nice one in beech with a properly fitted but mismatch bolt. They've got lots of handling marks in the wood but are sound and the bores are immaculate. To think I had over 400 of them. The end of an era. When I was a kid, I used to think that everything had to look new so I understand that cosmetic way of thinking. It's simply unrealistic to expect with as-issued military rifles. The older I get, the more I appreciate the character of use as long as it isn't abuse and the rifles are sound. Unlike many dealers who insist on refinishing rifles to make them pretty before resale, I've always left that to the decision of the buyer/collector. It probably didn't speed up sales any but the true collectors generally appreciate it. There's no question of originality as they left military service. My last four matching, original 1950 Long Branches went back to England this year too. Where they originated after release from Greek service. Roger at Nordenfelt has them so snap them up guys. There was another British dealer who visited here but would never buy my rifles because they weren't good, (read pretty), enough in his opinion. I broke my back packing and exporting rifles for him too from Gunbroker and elsewhere, (mostly the new Mk.2's), until we parted ways a few years ago. I made the mistake of letting my new in the wrap Mk.2's go too and didn't even keep one for myself. Oh well bidness is bidness.

I have one of Brian's 1950 Long Branch rifles, Greek Service. Matching and sound, Great Rifle.

Any folks here going to the Forks of the Delaware show on Saturday? I will be there and it would be nice to meet up with any other enfield collectors from the SE PA area. If you see a middle aged fellow walking around pawing through parts bins with an incomplete No 7 MKI (british version) it will be me (looking for a magazine subsitute).

Regards

Frederick303 (Fritz on the gunboards forum)

I've found the Allentown shows to be the most expensive shows I've gone to. No idea why but it's like they mark everything up about 30% or more for that show so I won't be going.

I did discover a show very early this morning that I would like to go to down at Aberdeen Maryland. It's at the baseball stadium I guess and is just military. It's a buy/sell/trade show and it's free admission. I wish I had known about it sooner.

The gun auction from hell is today and tomorrow is Mothers Day so I probably won't get down to it. Gun auction has three rifles I'd love to bring home that are all going to sell for about $100 more than they are worth. But I still have to drag myself down there on the .001% chance that there is no one else there that wants at least one of them.

Fred303. If it was me looking for a magazine that would fit into a UK spec No7 and operate and feed as opposed to an ORIGINAL, then it should be simplicity itself. All you need to find is an unserviceable No1 rifle magazine case and position into it a cheap and cheerful 5 or 10 round replacement aftermarket .22" magazine. Position it accurately and pour a setting resin into the case. Let it set and you have a .22" magazine for your UK spec No7. That's what my friend here did and it works perfectly.

The only reason the original No7 magazines were ex No1 rifle cases was because BSA sought a relaxation in the original spec because the No1 magazine cases were more substantial and it allowed them to rivet the housing plate into them. I was told that this wasn't strictly correct because by seeking the relaxation from the original spec, they were able to use up a few thousand un-useable and unsaleable No1 rifle magazine casings that they had in stock

Capt Laidler,

I had the No 1 BS marked Magazine body with the welded insert to allow the use of the modified BSA magazine. What I needed was the magazine.

I found one of the BSA model 5 magazines at the show this morning. It does have the reversed clip relative to the actual No 7 magazine clip, so I have to figure out how to modify that. Otherwise it seems to be a tight fit. I was very pleased to find this magazine, which was rather expensive at 40 US.

I ended up with the No 7 because a friend bought one cheap and then decided that I should have it as he did not want to put the time (or the money) into it for something that in the end would not be correct.


Araqorn243

Now as to why I like that show, I am interested in Irish and Enfield target rifles. I found two Irish marked No 9 MK 1 bayonets, one 1953 trials serial range, the other a late 54 dated one, with scabbards. The first put me back 28, the second put me back 40. Not a steal but better then I would do on Ebay with no shipping charge. I also found in one of the spare bins a A.J. Parker equivalent to the Ph-51 adjustable aperture for 20 bucks, a deal if ever there was one.

I found a bolt for the G33/40 for 140, not cheap but I needed that bolt and have not seen one without a rifle attached for years (and the one I saw was parkarized and on a Israeli 7.62 Nato rifle).

Last I found an excellent condition M39 Finn sling, an East German marked 91/30 sling, a brand new MAS sling, a slightly used Enfield pattern sling, each for 10 dollars each. Not a bad deal.

The forks show is one of the best show for finding odd bits like this. There were three folks with significant numbers of Enfield parts, I saw a plain (no grooves) No 4 cocking piece for 5 dollars, a rear lobbing sight and a SMLE MK I type magazine. All hard to find parts if you needed them (I did not). It is a most excllent show, though you are right the rifle prices are not cheap.