E.A.L. Lee Enfield questions

At a gun show this past weekend I scored a rather nice "military" pattern E.A.L. Lee Enfield. The rifle is in quite good shape. The serial # is in the mid 5000 range.

I have a couple questions:

First the magazine - The military pattern EAL is supposed to have a five round magazine, which mine did, however the magazine mine came with is a made by Parker Hale. Is that the correct magazine (I don't think it is)? Can anyone point me to a photo of a proper 5 round EAL mag, or be so kind as to post a photo of one should they actually have one?

Second I have a question about the original finish used on the stocks. Mine has rather poorly applied varnish which I doubt is original. Luckily the wood does not appear to have been sanded. Was the original finish an oil finish?

Thanks for any help.

DAMMIT WHY can't I find one of these in the USA ANYWHERE. grrrr. post pics please so we can droool a little.

Hello P.E. Islander ... :)

You might want to try our Google CSE custom search engine located in the top right corner below the words "Advanced Search". It only searches our site using Google techniques and can be quite efficient. For example, in your case, type in the words eal or e.a.l. and see what happens .. ;)

Lots of old threads and great pictures ... :thup:

Regards,
Doug

Sorry Newcastle but I found two in the US. They are out there you just have to be patient and go to as many gunshows as you can.

Ditto, I have one of each, the civillian version and the military version.

So which of youse guys can help P.E.Islander?

I do not have the right 5rd magazine either.

The bottom of the mag is squareed off. Very well done actually. The later round bottom ones are replacement from Parker Hale, which you may find also marked by another country. The only pics I have on hand don't belong to me.

I will check mine tonight and post a picture or two.

Thank you Newcastle for commenting on the scarcity of EAL rifles in the US. Ironically, I found my third one today at a local shop. Very reasonably priced as the dealer felt that it had been butchered by Bubba. I have a few items I am looking for, if I Email you could you ask about them in a posting. You seem to have a gift. Thank you.

The top rifle came from the Enfield author Charles Stratton estate. I have all the paperwork deading back to Stratton. None have the mystical five round magazine.

UNBELIEVEABLE!!!!!!! Ok then fire away. Anything else you're needing I'm sure I can't find it and I'm happy to ask questions. I seem to recall this worked for someone else previously also. Might have been Roger Wadham 'Roger from NZ' back in the Jouster website days. I recall asking about the No.1 Mk6 and then he F^%$*$g found one when he was living in LA. Do you really need 3 of these though???

Best I can offer is that I will mate them and you can have pick of the litter. As to the list, I am always looking for Savage No.4 serial 0C2, another Pratt & Whitney. Best, p.

Although P.E. Islander hasn't been on site since an hour after he posted his inqueries, I'll ask a follow-up question: Was the stock finish the usual raw linseed oil as issued?

It looked at mine and they seem to have an oiled finish. Not glossy--I would say it was Linseed Oil and I won't get into the boiled vs. raw Linseed oil arguments.

I know I’m late to respond to this, but I do believe that is the original finishe. Both of my civilian EALs have a weird varnish on them. I’m assuming it was to keep the wood dry as the EAL is a survival rifle.

P.E.Islander,
When you look into your magazine at the lip is it stamped SVC per chance?

Lots of magazines were marked PH or SVC.
There were two types of E.A.L Rifles produced one for the Military and the other the Civilian market.
The Military numbers were serial numbers from 6000 to 6999 with a 5 round magazine, express type rear sight with (2 folding blades), and the standard military fore sight.

The wrist of the buttstock would have military acceptance proofs. Some military models have drilled and tapped holes for Parker Hale scope mounts.

The Civilian numbers were serial numbers from 2000 to 5000 with a 10 round magazine, military MK11 rear sight, ramped type fore sight with blade.

Mine has a bog standard linseed oil finish.

P.E.Islander,
I hope he comes back, but nothing replied to to date.

You will see in my thread of yesterday, a big gap of 1000 missing between 5000 and 6000. The reason for this is I have always believed none were ever made "intentionally" between those numbers. Anybody got anything different to that?

P.E Islander, Could you PM me with the actual number ;)

Any that I have seen in the 5000 range were identical to the military model, with the two little V flip up sights rather than the L type. I have one in the gunroom that falls in the 5000 serial range.

StenCollector,
That is interesting as an engineer who worked on them, remembers clearly leaving the gap of 1000 and he has confirmed that recently for me. He prpbably left after a change of plan!

Here is mine.

I'll await his response!

The answer was that 5000-6000 were made solely for the Canadian Northern Rangers by Essential Agencies Limited (E.A.L.) of Toronto. Thats why that 1000 were allocated to them, the rest of the Military ones were issued to the Canadian Air Force for possible crash situations in remote areas.

Thier magazines when pulled out will say "Made in Japan expressly for Parker Hale Limited" watch this video: The Rare Lee Enfield E.A.L. Rifle - YouTube

Canadian Rangers on a shoot: Canadan Rangers - YouTube

I am not so sure the Canadian military would differentiate the use of the rifle by the serial number. There was only one NSN for the EAL rifles. While some had the PH scope mounts, the NSN did not seem to differentiate those that did.

In the linked video, he points out that the JAPAN made magazines are not the factory correct ones, but may have been a replacement for missing mags in service. I have owned several EAL rifles, and they have had the cut down 10 round mags.

I ran the NSN about 15 years ago in the supply system, and at that time there were still somewhere around 300 left in the DND with the majority of those hiding in the depots. Only a handful were still with airforce units, and non identified as being held by ranger units.

Stencollector,
Thats his memory from when he worked at PH, it was only when I suggested "did the 1000 between 5000 and 6000 go to any other specialist units in Canada" he came out with Canadian Northern Rangers or Arctic units. He says the Japanese took over the mag production because they simply couldn't cope, they weren't the only producers for PH either, there were a couple more as stated earlier.
There are references to the missing 1000 in forums right across the northern hemisphere, be good to know what the thinking was behind it, as they all appear to be now in civi hands!
Could it have simply been, "we'll keep these 1000 back" as I know they were short on spare parts.

I'd be very interested in chatting with the engineer that worked on them as well.
I wrote the original blurb on the EAL and they were made by a medium sized gunsmith shop in Toronto by the name of St. Frances and Son. NOT S.T. Frances. It was S(ain)t Frances but the draft was published before it could be corrected or even checked for spelling.
They were NOT made by Canadian Arsenals and when I started to dig into info on how and why they were made privately and not at CAL things got ugly.
There has been a lot more info surface on the EAL since I wrote the initial blurb and there was even a .22 Hornet version of which it appears less than20 were made.
Always looking for info for a new and updated version of the EAL story, so any info anyone might have is appreciated.
Now you have part of "the rest of the story".

Warren,
You can speak to Bill Smallwood anytime, he has been of great assistance to me in my research of Parker Hale, and asked me to keep the records of that great historic Birmingham company, or whats left of them which I have now archived.
If you reside in the UK, he can be contacted on Tuesdays at Norman Clark Gunsmiths on 01788 579651.
He is getting on a bit so be gentle with him :lol:

Bill just contacted me after finding various Canadian Government documents re the EAL Rifle Military model NSN 1005-21-8-8-9499 and RCAF no: EO.30-65FE.
It states on there that 6280 -6999 appear now to have been issued to the Northern Ranger Units (unquote)
Thought I would chuck the spanner in the works, see if anybody else had anything different.
You guys over there, can't you ask under the Disclosure Act or does it not apply over there?? "They" should give you a definitive answer then

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

can't you ask under the Disclosure Act or does it not apply over there??

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Freedom of information act...but I'm not sure they would actually know anything about what we speak...

Jim,
Thats what I meant.............long night.
I have in the passed asked our local force about Enforcers, as one was mine and they coughed up with how many they had purchased. Public Knowledge and of course funds regardless. I suppose I was lucky as I knew many of the staff and the Firearms lads who clearly provided the info from their records.
Its a specialist role so I would say they may have it on record, even which outpost an amount of rifles were issued to by number, were they personal issue? one assumes so!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

re the EAL Rifle Military model NSN 1005-21-8-8-9499

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The number is 1005-21-808-9499.

I have seen where others talked that the serials 5000-6000 were civilian production, evident by the lack of a military inspection mark on them.

Apologies, my eye sight.

I also have a few EAL rifles. I am aware of half a dozen (including the one stencollector has) that fall in the 5000-6000 serial number range. A number of rifles with serial numbers below 1000 have also surfaced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stencollector

In the linked video, he points out that the JAPAN made magazines are not the factory correct ones, but may have been a replacement for missing mags in service. I have owned several EAL rifles, and they have had the cut down 10 round mags.

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Stencollector, are you referring to the mags for the military rifles? All the civilian rifles I have seen have had the 10 round mags.

Gil: re the NSN, the wrong number was printed in Warren's article on these guns, and has perpetuated through the years.

Ax: Seems to me I have received the 5 rounders with one or two civilian rifles that I have owned, as well as the couple of military ones. I don't recall what the article says on them. I also don't recall seeing a 5 round magazine available in the DND manuals on the Enfields.

IIRC the 10 rounder is correct for the civilian model.