Inland M1 buying advice

Hi, I'm new to the forums and I need a little advice. I have a couple SKS's and a Mosin Nagant but I've always wanted a M1 carbine. Last time I was at my local gun shop he had an Inland carbine 1943 or 44. He said it had a couple of Winchester parts, maybe the bolt and hammer, not sure. He said it was probably refurbished at some point since it had the Winchester parts. I rememebr seeing the "Inland Div. General Motors" stamped on it somewhere, the barrel I think, not sure about the receiver, etc. I didn't inspect it too closely because it's $599 (plus tax) which is not in my budget right now. That said, it has been stuck in my craw so I am wondering if I should just bite the bullet and get it, if it's still there.

So are there any tips or advice I can get, anything specific I should be looking for? I normally would take more time to research it myself but I'm trying to go tomorrow (Tues 5/22) to take a closer look so I don't have much time to research. Is $599 a fair price? Thanks for any help.

Carl,

First off welcome to the forum. It's a bit hard to jump in on a carbine without knowing some things about it. Do you have a carbine book for some kind of help?

Pictures would help, but being as it is in a store that is probably out.
Do you know the serial number? That would give a starting point.
I would ask a few questions of the LGS person. Does it have an import stamp on it? Does he have a muzzel gauge number? Has he taken it apart to know what the markings are, or is he just going by what he saw taking it out of the stock, and putting it back in.
As you look at it, what are it's features. Are they the later rebuild items or does it have some early feature still on. Which type barrel band, rear sight. Hi or low wood stock. Is there a crossed cannon on the right side of the stock?
Just general stuff like that.
$600 for a non import with a decent barrel is a fair buy. Not if import marked and the barrel is shot out.
There are a lot of variables to consider. That is where a book might really help.
Maybe he'd let you take some pictures?

Jim

Thanks Jim, I don't have a book and you are right, it's a leap and I'm a total greenhorn when it comes to the M1. I know the owner of the shop pretty well so maybe he will let me take some pics. I will try to do some research this morning before work so I know what the refurb and import marks look like, the difference in wood that you mebntioned, etc. I doubt he has done much of anything beyond verify it shoots so he might not have much more info for me.

I guess I am at the point where if I'm gonna spend money I don't really have on it (and risk sleeping on the couch for a little while, if you get my drift) I want it to be a very good deal, not just a fair buy. He had a newer post war one, can't remember the brand, but it was in almost new condition and I think he wanted $499 for that one. I just like the real milsurp ones better I guess. I should probably wait but I have not seen one of these come along in quite some time besides on Gun Broker where the prices can get a little silly in my humble, uneducated opinion. Add to that political situation around here and I'm afraid future oportunities might only get fewer and farther between and prices not likely to get better.

Carl,

Before you are "sleeping on the couch" look at it again.
Are you looking to have just one or start a collection? If just one, I'd hold off. Do a little research, buy a $20 book. You might find you will want to wait, spend a bit more, and get something maybe a bit collectible and from a different maker.
For me, any GI non import marked carbine in good condition is worth $600. Just the sum of it's parts. Are there better deals out there, sure they come along. An estate sale, or grandpa's closet carbine, stuff like that could be a find.
But I would think all LGS know what they have. Rebuilds are part of the carbine's story. Most will have been through at least one arsenal rebuild.
If the barrel eats the gauge, that will cost some money to replace, I would pass. An import mark to some reduces the value a little. Who's mark, how hard is it stamped (Blue Sky pretty hard), where is it located. To me not a deal breaker, but maybe makes you able to ask for a bit lower price. Stock are pricey. Is the stock in good condition. It will have some dings from use and wear marks. Carved up, cracked, drilled for a scope, pass. Does it come with anything else? A sling, pouch, mags. All of those add value as they will cost you money to buy. Again, not a deal breaker.
Bottom line, is the carbine worth the couch at this time? Don't be cold and lonely on a whim. :nono:

Jim

I'm leaning towards waiting but I tend to fall in love with milsurp guns. I usually figure if I get something at a fair price I can always sell it if I have to without taking a loss in a private sale but I'd hate to go through all of that, it's like losing a limb or a faithful, beloved pet.

I don't plan on starting a M1 collection but I do like milsurps. I have a refurbed 1943 Mosin Nagant 91/30 (dime a dozen I know but it's in great shape and I love it) and an all original 1952 Russian Tula SKS (definitely not dime a dozen and I really love that one). I also have a SKS-M but that's not milsurp, just a Norinco production gun for the American market but tons of fun with the AK mags.

I like the Russian guns (I'm of Russian desent) but I'm a proud American and would love to add a true American milsurp to my very small collection. I can imagine someday owning a M1 carbine and Garand. Not a huge fan of the AR15 platform and have no desire to spend the bucks necessary to legally own a real M16 (if that is even possible). Oh, and yes it will get used, not a ton but I do shoot my guns, just carefully with the collectible ones.

We'll see what happens when I get there, it may be gone and I can be sad and relieved all at once, lol.

Jim has some great info. 600 is not a bad price for a M1 in good condition. Beware they are very very addictive

Jim hit on the stock issue. I've only been collecting Carbines since March of last year. I've bought them just because the stock was nice. I also bought 3 stocks before I had enough rifles to put in them because they were decent condition for the price, were hard to find and I just wanted to spend some of that lust money that you're describing on that Inland. :thup:
Getting one because of a nice/rare stock is worth doing.
I was a little late finding one once. Someone told me about an import marked Carbine at a shop and I went that day and found it had a high wood Inland stock on it with ghost cartouche. The owner said it had some dings and dents so he had just sanded it and re-oiled it to make it look better. :( I was a little too late on that one. I bought it for the stock and sold the rifle with another. Later I stopped in to pick up some transfers I had sent in and he had another Inland (non-import) with a Rock-ola highwood stock with light cartouches. I bought it for the stock only for $629. Two highwoods from the same location just for the stocks.
You'll also find Carbines advertised as the maker of the barrel because they can't see the name under the rear sight. I found an ERMA once for $600 advertised as an Underwood because it had an Underwood barrel. Good price for an Underwood. Bad price for an ERMA.

OK, this is gonna be a long one, sorry. I got a good look at it but the owner wasn't there, just his son so I didn't want to ask to take pics. Actually the gun shop part of the store was locked but he opened it up for me to roam around behind the counter to look at it. Since I've known them for 27 years or so and worked there in college I guess they trust me. Then I ended up helping a couple of customers so I got a little distracted.

Anyway, here is what I found out. It is an import via Arlington Ordnance. The stamp is heavy on the bottom of the barrel but not really large and it does not say Blue Sky anywhere. Seems like a mis-mash of parts. The barrel says Inland Div General Motors 2-43 and the receiver also says Inland Div with the serial number just below it. It has a bayonet lug (is 1943 too early for a bayo lug?) and the barrel band is fairly wide and looks to fit the hand gaurd and stock properly but it has SI stamped on it . The front sight also has SI as well as a B stamped on it. The tag he has on it says it has a Winchester bolt and operating handle but I didn't see markings, maybe I missed them. The stock didn't seem to have any markings at all on it other than a sideways M or W in the sling cutout. Oval sling cutout, not an I, not sure the stock and handgaurd matched as the stock was a medium-dark brown and the handgaurd was a medium-dark brown but with a hint of red to it. Stock was low wood and I think the handgaurd has the deep, wide sight groove. The handgaurd had two rivits at the back end, not four. Rear sight is the adjustable one for windage and elevation, not the two position flip sight. The tag also says low serial number, early 1943, serial number is 28xxx9.

So, being a greenhorn I'm not sure what all that means other than it's an import and refurbished in some way shape or form at least once, maybe more than once. Overall, it still looks decent but like an idiot I forgot my light so I didn't get a great look at the bore. I'm nervous about the heavy Arlington Ordnance stamp and the seemingly vast array of mis-matched parts so I think I'm definitely going to pass at $599. It is fun learning about these little pieces of American history though and if he comes down on the price I may still be interested. Honestly I don't want a safe queen but I don't want crap either and I'd rather not spend $600. If it's still there when the owner returns I'll see if he will let me take a few pics.

In the meantime any thoughts or comments are appreciated!

P.S. It's blued, not parkerized and the safety is the flip safety and the mag release had either an M or an underlinded M on it. I know I missed plenty but took notes on what I could remember to look for from what little research I could do today and the info I got here, thanks Jim! I forgot to see if it was the M1 or M2 stock.

Look the receiver closely, to make sure it wasn't cut in two and has been re-welded.
A young guy I know is sitting on one right now that he had no idea it had been someones 'Rescue a Carbine' project.
He spent to much on it to start with.
Now it's only worth the sum of the parts, minus a receiver. Or he could try fitting another receiver on it. That investment now would surpass what a good condition USGI rebuilt would have cost.

In my area of central lower Michigan a all USGI carbine still runs about $700. Sometimes with extras, sometimes not.

Try this,
Go to the.. The Carbine Club's web page and print off a Data Sheet (Link Below).
This will help you ID the parts on a carbine. Also gives you an idea of where to look for their markings and whether their early, mid range or late WWII.

Another thought,
If you know the Shop Owner, Ask if you could take it home one evening and document it with pictures. Or if he isn't to busy you may be able to do it at his shop. If you can take it home and while you have it, feel free to contact me or any member here your comfortable with. Any of us would be happy to walk you thru a breakdown and parts ID.
You'd get the info you need and can then return it to the shop the next AM. You'd have the info you'd need to finalize a deal or back away.
Use a M1 Garand round ( I call it a M2 round) you can use this as a poor mans muzzle gage. Note how much doesn't drop in the barrel. Not precise, but a big help.

The Carbine Club - A CMP Affiliated Organization
Study this data sheet, write down your notes and continue what you've already started... Asking Questions.
You can click on my Avatar picture and E-mail or send me a PM.

Good Luck,
Charlie-painter777

Carl in Ct,
E-mail sent. I've sent you a check list and a link to the complete serial numbers by maker. You can use these along with the Clubs Data sheet, fill them out with what you observe and we'll be able to help walk you thru what you've stumbled upon.

Cheers,
Charlie-painter777

DOG GONE IT, I was in such a hurry to get some research tools in your hand I didn't notice you had looked it over again................

Carl,

A 28X,XXX Inland would have been built around 4- 1943, so the 2-43 barrel appears to go with the receiver. That is pretty early. Sounds like it's a normal import with rebuild upgrades. The W in the sling cut sounds like it could be Winchester. You mention a few other Winchester marked parts. If they are, you can surely trade them for Inland parts. It would be costly to try and restore to original with stock, rear sight, type 1 band, mag catch, safety, etc. But if it shoots good, does the shop owner have a range?
As Charlie mentioned, check for a rewelded receiver. But I don't see many of those. Pictures would help to see condition if you can get some.
I think for $600 it would be a good milsurps addition and would pick it up. They $700/800 in my area.
But it's easy for me to say, I'm a carbine junkie and it wouldn't put me on the couch. :lol:

Good luck,

Jim

Carl,
Id study up on carbines first in your situation. There are some exellent books on carbines out there, the best being Larry Ruths books. No point in sleeping on the couch when you can remain in marital bliss! I recently picked up a hand stamped Inland that was sold by the NRA to a WWII vet police chief in Maine. I didnt pay much more than your looking to spend, and I got it off gunbroker of all places. There are good deals out there if you know what your looking for.

Thanks painter777 for the e-mail, I will use that checklist and look for the books and other resources you and others have mentioned.

Jim, you rock! Thanks to everyone for the advice so far, you all make a newbie feel welcome!

I think that gun will sit for a little while at that price. It doesn't knock your socks off right away visually and I don't see many milsurp collectors at his shop, mostly just good ole boy hunters and young guys looking for black rifles (Saigas, ARs, etc.). So I think I have some time to research and think about it. Maybe when the owner gets back from his trip I can hit him up with the info I have and see if he will let me field strip it, take pics, and maybe fire it. He doesn't have a range, he used to shoot out in the back but someone put a daycare next door so they get a little uptight with too much shooting. I think if I go Sunday the daycare is closed so maybe then I can shoot it. I'm not sure he will let me take it home though, maybe with some sort of deposit, I dunno. I still would love to find one at $500 or less which may not be easy but might not be impossible either. Honestly it's something I have always wanted but never been in a rush for, especially now that prices have gotten so high so I'm ok it this one gets away.

Any import stamp is not good for a collector pricing. I've bought several imports though. $550 for a Winchester spring tube Blue Sky on GB to a $699 Bavarian INTRAC Inland in a repro paratrooper stock.
Arl Ord is not as bad as Blue Sky, but worse than Sherwood and INTRAC as far as noticeable stampings.

They are superb examples of American industrial art that could only have been built in this country. My youngest son, who graduated from Cal a couple of years ago, likes to shoot. But when I told him about the story of how nine companies, only one of them in the gun business, managed to build over 6 million of these things in about three years, he started to see what he was holding in his hands. There is nothing ordinary about these rifles at all. Consider that they never built another after 1945 and ALL parts interchange. Almost 70 years later we are still fascinated with the beauty and utility of these little rifles.

I urge you to get a copy of "War Baby" and read the whole story of what this country used to be able to do when necessity demanded results.

The carbine that you eventually buy will be unique and will have its own story and history. A rebuilt mixmaster is just as good or better than some put together corrected carbine. I would suggest that you try and find a carbine that is tight and as fresh as possible. They are out there and some of the later Inlands will be in like new condition.

Hi Dave, I am a bit of a history buff although I don't have much time to really read up on it etc. I think it's the history that draws me to milsurp guns in the first place and the M1 carbine is special because of the things you describe. I don't know that much about it yet but it seems to represent American ingenuity and ability to knuckle down and get things done on a level other countries had no prayer of duplicating. I fear most people and companies in America have lost that ability or at least the willingnes to do it unless they are getting paid some absorbanent price for their goods and services.

Anyway, it looks like I am going to pass on the M1 I have been talking about. After a realistic financial review It's just not in the budget so I have to let it go. Thanks everyone for your advice and input. I will keep reading up on the M1 carbine so if/when I get a shot at one when I have the money I will be ready.

Thanks again!

- Carl