If you could cast your eyes over this piece and let me know your thoughts on it's originality ...
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If you could cast your eyes over this piece and let me know your thoughts on it's originality ...
Attachment 34166Attachment 34165Attachment 34167Attachment 34168Attachment 34169Attachment 34170Attachment 34171
It's not an original or a good rebuild.
The barrel and receiver are probably o.k. but the bolt is definitely a fake, the inspection markings are probably fake, and the mount base is questionable. (Upon review the base is probably ok but the finish especially on the foreward part looks wrong - maybe cold blue??)
The magazine box assy. should, by that date, have the large bow TG.
The 3rd Model M73B1 is technically "correct' for any A4 but they would have all found their way onto rifles through the spare parts stream or civilian market
Wish the news was better :(
Regards,
Jim
Thanks for your comments, Jim.
What makes you think the bolt is fake?
Could the magazine box assembly have been a replacement later on down the line?
Best Regards,
Looks like the bolt has too much of a rearward sweep. AGB-1
Also the finish on the bolt handle isn't the same as the rest. Close pics would help but it appears to have been cold blued or a touch of browning to conceal what's been done.
The dead giveaway is the square safety lug. That is typical for spare parts provided by other contractors. The color and shape of the handle as noted by others are factors too.
Regards,
Jim
Thanks for your thoughts so far all.
If the receiver, barrel, woodwork, mount and scope are original, am I correct in understanding I would only need to replace the bolt and a few minor parts to make this 100%?
mount and rings are not original.
More pictures are necessary.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oGuide_R-1.jpg
I have doubts about the stock as well.
Regards,
JIm
I think you need to go back and read and compile all these assessments. There's nothing correct here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirtyAughtSix
receiver and barrel are likley original to each other,, the rest of the rifle was put together around them
Returning it to original condition will probably be expensive. Why not enjoy it the way it is. Good for vintage military matches and such.The days of building parts guns and restoring cheaply are gone.
I have built two"replica" A4s and the cost is barely under the price of a GibbsA4. AGB-1
I'd love to have it just like that so I could shoot it as is and not worry about it. You could even re-finish it so it looks new before hand. No harm done.
The basic principle is simple, and does not require you to be an expert in a particular type of rifle, just to look very carefully: inconsistency of finish and wear is a very good sign that an object has been altered in some way.
I have compared the inspection stamp (FJA) on the left side of the stock to other, known examples and believe it to be a counterfeit. There other should be other marks in the same location that are missing. Usually some trace remains if the fact they're gone can be attributed to wear or sanding.
Regards,
Jim
Hi,
From that serial number (3423811) then I would suspect that you can no longer shoot this rifle as it has been de-activated. If you would like to know more about its history please let me know - I can reply privately or on the forum.
Dave
even if it was a drill rifle, reactivating them is fine if done so correctly..as long as the rifle is in good shape, and headspaces well, i dont see a reason why its unsafe to shoot.
i went back and looked close at the pictures.. i dont belive this to be a receovered drill rifle.. maybe you can expand as to why you belive its unsafe to shoot?
Over in the UK for those who want to own collectable and other firearms and who don't wish to shoot them or go through the hassle of the application and vetting process for the Firearm Certificate there is the option to purchase the de-activated weapon. These are carried out under strict criteria and are submitted to the Proof House to verify and be stamped to say that they can no longer fire a bullet and therefore are not a danger to the general public. Militaria dealers sell them to collectors and re-enactors.
The barrel has a 1/4 inch slot milled in the under side, full length (where the stock covers), and through the chamber and feed ramp of the receiver. A hole is drilled in the side of the receiver and a metal pin inserted and welded in so that the barrel cannot be unscrewed. A metal rod is inserted the full length of the barrel just short of the muzzle and welded in via the slot underneath. The firing pin is cut short and some of the lugs on the bolt are ground off, together with the bearing face of the bolt, so that it can no longer support a cartridge. Your Proof House Certificate confirms that all this work has been carried out to a satisfactory standard and therefore ready for sale without a Firearms Licence and that it can never be fired or re-activated to fire again. I did this to that rifle in 1998...... I can hear you say 'what a terrible thing to do' - But ! and there is always a but !!
This rifle was one of a small batch of A4's which came out of Greece in the early/mid 1990's and they were bought by one of the larger dealers in the UK at the time, Charnwood Ordnance. Alas, they no longer trade, being one of the many dealers that chose to ceased trading when the gun laws were changed in the late 1990's in the UK. I, together with a friend, purchased the A4's from them, 7 in total, if my memory serves me right.
They were in a sorry state - not one was complete, some were just barrelled actions with a bolt and mount. All the barrels had had a 1/4 inch hole drilled in them by the Greeks just in front of the receiver and the stocks (4 of them had stocks) had been smashed as if the muzzle had been held and the butt smashed on the floor !! They were broken at the stock reinforcing screws. All had minor bits missing and one the original bolt (it had one that had been 'made up'). I think this may be the one. They all came with the mounts (no rings).
We obtained the missing bits from Sarco, with stocks, and bought 4 new barrels (paying extra so that the dates matched those of the original barrels). Three of the rifles were rebuilt leaving the original drilled barrels on (deactivated in the manor described) and sold to Militaria dealers to sell on. No scopes were supplied and the stocks were not cartouched or inspector marked - these must have been added later. The other 4 were rebuilt as shooters with the new barrels and obviously this could be seen as so because of the bright unparkerized sight ring at the muzzle. These were head-spaced and proofed, 3 were sold and have proven to be accurate shooters. One I kept and it is my A4 shooter - I cant destroy its value and it is fun to shoot ! I have several A4's that I have imported from around the world all in original condition and those I leave in the rack !!
So every picture has a story to tell - congratulations to all the experts, you were right in your observations. The barrel, receiver and mount were indeed correct..... the rest - well put together.
So I'm sorry 'ThirtyAughtsix' - it may not be as completely original as you thought.
So...what exactly IS going on here?
i dont see any signs of the receiver being welded or drilled. the mount is not original, and is a commercial 1950,s vintage that has been cold blued.. could your records be in error.?
how bout taking the rifle out of the stock, and sharing pics of those areas...id like to see them
Nobsdave, Thanks for taking the time to post the additional. I have updated my database accordingly.
Chuck, Im not sure about the rings which may be commercial but the base looks like all the other GI bases (e.g. beveled rear, square corners and "REDFIELD" in block letters on the rear rear quarter). What was bothering me was the finish, particularly the brown mottled color on the left side. That and the new stock was suggesting to me the possibility of a gun that had been in a fire but now we have the story.
Regards,
Jim
Chuck, all the work (or damage) to the rifle by the deactivation process is not visible with the bolt closed and stock on. I cant furnish you with photo's of this rifle but I can of another to show you what is done - whether the rifle is deactivated or a shooter its value is similar in the UK. Some of the rifles and the bases had lost their parkerizing in places and had gained a light patina in those areas (showing as brownish in the photo's). If it is of interest to Jim I'll dig out the serial numbers of the rifles for your records.
Nobsdave, when you have the time i would be glad to receive any additional information you might have on the A4'a. At the moment I have varying amounts of data on about 900~ A4's.
A lot have been added one or two at a time from collectors and enthusiasts such as yourself.
Thanks!
Regards,
Jim
Jim. I'll dig the serial numbers out for you , together with the numbers of the rifles in my modest collection. It will give me something to do while i'm watching the Queens Diamond Jubilee on the T.V. Dave
It would appear the ID of this piece has been put to rest. Thanks to all and especially to Nobsdave.
---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------
I would be very interested to know those other serials as well, Nobsdave.
jim. just to let you know i've sent you a private message with the info as promised.
Kind regards. Dave