Use of Brit SMLE No.4 Mk.1 T by Aust Army in WWII

I know that in WWII we (Australian Army) used the SMLE Mk.III* HT, old MkIII T, the P14 and even the US / Dutch Johnson rifle, but I have an record of interview with an old 9th Aust Div sniper who, in Tobruk, 'pinched' a couple of Brit No.4 Mk I Ts for sniper use. They were impressed with their performance, esp. the No.32 scope they had, and brought them back to Aust. However, I can find no photographic record of their use in Aust Army. Anyone have any info about the use of the WWII Brit sniper rifle by Aust Army?

Glenn

Morshead's mob might had had a well deserved reputation as scroungers, but to pinch two brand-new telescoped rifles seems a bit over the top.

Do the dates event remotely line up for this to be true?

The seige of Tobruk was lifted in November 1941; would the No4 T have been on issue in Libya that early?

The 9th Division was still in theatre for El Alamein the next year, would seem to be a slightly more plausible time to liberate the rifles.

Actually, there were pictures on the 'other' website showing No.4s in Australian service. Some were pictures identified the troops as being VDG. I seem to recall some commentary at the time about RAAF use and 'home service' use, but none about active service use.

In Damien Parers book 200 pictures , it shows a couple of pics of the aussies using garands during an attack up in the pacific. whilst I realise it's a different are of ops, it does show thye used different weapons than issued. There is a drawing of a 2/6th commando in libya using a breda gun that was captured from the itlaians (wouldn'nt have had much use then) but the dtaes of the No4T like Max said could be out a little maybe. Who knows? anything is possible and probably is!!!

cheers
Ned

I bought a book a few weeks ago that was about the aussies in new guinea. On the front cover was a photo of Australian soldiers at Buna in late 1942 and one of them had a no. 4.

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Originally Posted by Pablo

I bought a book a few weeks ago that was about the aussies in new guinea. On the front cover was a photo of Australian soldiers at Buna in late 1942 and one of them had a no. 4.

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If its the same pic its at Sananada.
Also some Vic VDC used some small numbers of No4's, there are official pics to confirm.
The RAAF used No4's in Malaysia/ Borneo and the Army using the No5 up there as well is well known

A 'mixed fl;eet' is always a thorny one....... The moment something goes wrong that's not in the usual supply chain/Ordnance system, you. 're well and truly f...., er........., knackered. Think Unimogs in the Falklands or Bedfords captured at Dunkirk

It's like all these old fairy stories about someones friends, dads uncles mates patrol who threw their Brens/Stens away and used MG42's or MP40's. Yea....... They might have found and kept one, but they certainly didn't use it as the norm.

That's only my opinion of service life

Thanks for your replies. I'm writing a book for Aust Army on the history of our snipers / sniping and always like to check oral history, especially going back as far as WWII. It does appear that the Brits got the SMLE No.4 Mk.I T in second-half of 1941 out in the Western Desert, even though it wasn't officially 'realeased' until 1942. There were a few No.4 Mk.Is in service in Aust later in the war (very possibly kit earmarked for Malaya), and our Infantry Centre Museum has a M1 Garand with a scope that was used by a Digger'in WWII. They even have an M1941 Johnson with a P18 scope. But I have seen no record of the sniper vsn of the No.4 Mk.I being used by us, so I might just leave this out.
Thanx, Glenn

Mate, why not ask the AWM research staff and check with the Army Historical Section? Either or both should have a record of whether or not, and if so - when, etc.

are you including the present day?
regular force snipers and or special forces snipers?
you would be surprised at the modern implementation of the sniper in the battlespace.
and I would reckon the kill count would outweigh the old fellas
cheers
Ned

Gents, Lt.Col. Glenn IS the real deal and works for the Oz Army Historical Unit.

Any assistance given would be most appreciated.

Just my 2c worth. Thanks.

Thanks Lithy,
Pity he couldn't ID himself so we knew who we are speaking to.
He's probably got more access to reliable info than we have.
cheers
ned

Don't worry mate. When the book is published I'll be flogging it left right and centre. He's got some highly respected help as well as my bad.

is it being done with crayons?

will our Omark specials feature?

Yours and son's HT's would be?

Do I get a copy?

Thanks and out.

Ned

On a slightly different note just reading Andrew Salmon's Scorched Earth, Black Snow on the 27th Brigade in the Korean War and lo in the central picture part of the book (I like a book with pictures...) is the RAR's Robbie 'The Hitman' Robertson who, the caption has it, was trained to shoot out to 1,000 yards - along with his weapon, a good old SMLE HT (looks like high mounts to me).

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It's like all these old fairy stories about someones friends, dads uncles mates patrol who threw their Brens/Stens away and used MG42's or MP40's. Yea....... They might have found and kept one, but they certainly didn't use it as the norm.

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I Know these are possible propaganda pics to boost the moral back home at the time, but I think this guy may of made best use of his MP40, dont know if its the same one on the sherman (if it is a sherman just going by the caption) left of the guy at the front with the No4,

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../06/mp40-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...n44px800-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Paul S.

Actually, there were pictures on the 'other' website showing No.4s in Australian service. ... I seem to recall some commentary at the time about RAAF use and 'home service' use, ...

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The website I referred to was the old Culvers' site. "Maynard", a "banana bender", was a frequent poster and as memory serves he posted comments and pictures (some of which I think were AWM marked) of No4s in Australian hands.

John Sukey who posts here may remember the discussions and may have archived some of the material.

Hello, Glenn. I see you found your way here eventually, mate.
The Johnson with the Patt18 scope was an interesting little experiment. Must say I did a double-take when I spotted it!

I can't help on your present inquiry but one thing I am going to mention... Your terminology regards referring to the No4 rifle as an SMLE is incorrect. The No4 was a new development, it superseded the SMLE... It would be like calling a holden commodore a kingswood.

Cheers, mate..

Brad (at the school)

I'm looking for any Australian Army literature and manuals for the AI SR98 sniper rifle. Are these publications available or classified material?

Is that the same as our current .338 rifle Brian? Any ideas Son/Muffer/Bruce/Trooper

Pretty much the same as the L115 Peter except in 7.62 NATO instead of the big .338 LM. I'd love to find one of the original S&B 3-12x50 PM telescopes with the Mildot too but I'm probably grasping at straws. I have the current USMC variant on it now.

Brian,
What are you in particular after?
I have most of the pam (photocopy) and I am sure what i haven't got Son will have access to the info.

Cheers
Ned

Ned,

I'm not sure what publications are available for it. I don't have any of the genuine Australian user handbooks, EMERs or training pams. Any enlightenment would be much appreciated. It took me a few years to accumulate the proper CES short the original telescope.

Regards,
Brian

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Originally Posted by gwahlert

I know that in WWII we (Australian Army) used the SMLE Mk.III* HT, old MkIII T, the P14 and even the US / Dutch Johnson rifle, but I have an record of interview with an old 9th Aust Div sniper who, in Tobruk, 'pinched' a couple of Brit No.4 Mk I Ts for sniper use. They were impressed with their performance, esp. the No.32 scope they had, and brought them back to Aust. However, I can find no photographic record of their use in Aust Army. Anyone have any info about the use of the WWII Brit sniper rifle by Aust Army?

Glenn

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Is the sniper now deceased?

In Malaya during the 60's, the resident Aust and NZ Battalions were equipped with No4T's but I never saw one with Australians outside there and even then I assume that they were only issued there because most of the weapons except the M60's were from pooled UK stores. I never saw them issued either, not even on range day jollies. Not a lot of scope for sniping there I hasten to add. John Cottrell our Armourer Sgt was familiar with them because he was a pom and had been a NS Armourer in the pom Army before he was transported to Oz! I never saw a No1/SMLE-T issued to any of the Battalions either and didn't realise that they were still current at the time!

Not too sure about serving spanners passing around copies of current equipment manuals; especially ones with the word "RESTRICTED" printed on each page.

However, AI themselves may have something: Sniper Rifle Systems - AE, AW, AX, AX50 AICS Sniper Rifles | Accuracy International

A pdf of the "user manual" for the commercial model appears here: http://stevespages.com/pdf/accuracy_...ational_ae.pdf

I will ask the one bloke I know with a full (commercial) kit if he coughed up for the service manual when he bought the thing.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

In Malaya during the 60's, the resident Aust and NZ Battalions were equipped with No4T's but I never saw one with Australians outside there and even then I assume that they were only issued there because most of the weapons except the M60's were from pooled UK stores. I never saw them issued either, not even on range day jollies. Not a lot of scope for sniping there I hasten to add. John Cottrell our Armourer Sgt was familiar with them because he was a pom and had been a NS Armourer in the pom Army before he was transported to Oz! I never saw a No1/SMLE-T issued to any of the Battalions either and didn't realise that they were still current at the time!

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Peter. The AIF had no snipers at that stage. The capability had been deemed as not required anymore, so they stopped training them. They were used to a fairly broad extent in Korea, but the rifles were returned shortly after and there was no more sniper training until the early seventies. Once it was decided to re commence sniper training, the school here was set up to do it and in the absence of a rifle more recent, they dragged out the Lithgow No1 MkIII# HT again to train with, even though the rest of the army had the SLR. It all culminated in the trials that saw the PH M82 adopted.

In Ian Kurring's book "From Red Coats To Cams" I cannot recall seeing mention of any snipers or equipment used by our troops in Malaya, but then, during Vietnam they were aligned closely with the Americans and utilised their gear. I have spoken with Ian at great length on the topic, so I would think any use of the 4T in Malaya would not have been official... But, as usual, I am ready to be corrected on this.

I'm sure that I have mentioned this before but in SVN 8-RAR had a small sniper section or at least 'trained' snipers run by Cpl 'Taffy' Bond that will be on record. I think son has hit the nail on the head about 'true'[ sniping in the 60's Australian Army. The No4's we had were definately an official issue because the Poms had the same until they withdrew in 1967.

Interesting thread

Yep. I take the story from Australian's in the Boer War through to recent ops in Timor, Afghanistan and Iraq. Have received good support from our sniper teams in the battalions, and from our Inf Centre sniper master.
Glenn

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Originally Posted by trooper554877

are you including the present day?
regular force snipers and or special forces snipers?
you would be surprised at the modern implementation of the sniper in the battlespace.
and I would reckon the kill count would outweigh the old fellas
cheers
Ned

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by gwahlert

I know that in WWII we (Australian Army) used the SMLE Mk.III* HT, old MkIII T, the P14 and even the US / Dutch Johnson rifle, but I have an record of interview with an old 9th Aust Div sniper who, in Tobruk, 'pinched' a couple of Brit No.4 Mk I Ts for sniper use. They were impressed with their performance, esp. the No.32 scope they had, and brought them back to Aust. However, I can find no photographic record of their use in Aust Army. Anyone have any info about the use of the WWII Brit sniper rifle by Aust Army?

Glenn

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The No.4 sniper rifle first went into action in North Africa, but the desert warfare was not really suited to sniper operation and those equipments sent there could not be maintained due to the lack of necessary information, and no one had been trained in their use. The field units that tried the rifles experienced difficulties with the sights and chose not to burden themselves with this extra equipment, and so the sniping role was largely disregarded.

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The British Sniper, I.D.S., p. 109.

Almost all the sniping lessons of South Africa and WWI had been forgotten by WWII it seems, except by those who had been directly involved. From what I've read, they gradually rebuilt the craft until by the end of the war it was about back to the level of 1917-18 in terms of training and organization. Until then, except in specialist or elite units, most No4(T)s seem to have been in the hands of "marksmen" for want of a better term, though I have never seen any evidence that the rifles were allocated to the best shots in a unit in any systematic way.

It would make perfect sense to me that troops like the Aussies, who (like other Dominion troops) had a reputation for thinking for themselves and making use of what's available regardless of KR&Os, would have 'liberated' some No4(T)s if they were sitting in some ordnance depot unused. Especially considering how well their snipers did elsewhere, with Pattern 18 scopes that must have been even more "unsuitable" for the desert! Very doubtful that the rifles would have been sent back to the UK after whichever units it was turned up their noses at them.

Also makes one wonder what happened to the eight No3 MkI*(T) rifles that were supposed to be on issue in every British infantry battalion? Were they left to languish in some depot as well? I've never seen a photo of a No3(T) in the desert except for the Australians at Tobruk. (Some of us might know of men who served in the infantry in the desert who could be asked if they ever saw a sniping rifle in their units...?)

It's one of those ironies of history that the forward thinking advocates of mechanization and automatic weapons in the Army in WWI and between the wars tended to discount the rifle's (and the bayonet's) value in reaction to the obsession with "rifles and bayonets" of Haig and the other donkeys. A case of the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. Thus sniping fell unwanted and unloved between the two camps it seems, although some who remembered seem to have tried to interest the authorities in the late 30s, judging by the articles in the NRA Journals of the time.

Desert warfare simply doesn't lend itself to sniping. It's like shooting from a window with the net curtains closed. Every time you shoot, the curtains billow out - just like dust - which is the very last thing a sniper needs

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Originally Posted by Son

Hello, Glenn. I see you found your way here eventually, mate.
The Johnson with the Patt18 scope was an interesting little experiment. Must say I did a double-take when I spotted it!

I can't help on your present inquiry but one thing I am going to mention... Your terminology regards referring to the No4 rifle as an SMLE is incorrect. The No4 was a new development, it superseded the SMLE... It would be like calling a holden commodore a kingswood.

Cheers, mate..

Brad (at the school)

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Thanx Son. I hadn't picked up on that. Yes, this Forum is great. These guys have helped me out on a number of queries & some continue to feed me info via private messages. Cheers, Glenn

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Originally Posted by Son

Peter. The AIF had no snipers at that stage. The capability had been deemed as not required anymore, so they stopped training them. They were used to a fairly broad extent in Korea, but the rifles were returned shortly after and there was no more sniper training until the early seventies. Once it was decided to re commence sniper training, the school here was set up to do it and in the absence of a rifle more recent, they dragged out the Lithgow No1 MkIII# HT again to train with, even though the rest of the army had the SLR. It all culminated in the trials that saw the PH M82 adopted.

In Ian Kurring's book "From Red Coats To Cams" I cannot recall seeing mention of any snipers or equipment used by our troops in Malaya, but then, during Vietnam they were aligned closely with the Americans and utilised their gear. I have spoken with Ian at great length on the topic, so I would think any use of the 4T in Malaya would not have been official... But, as usual, I am ready to be corrected on this.

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You're right Son. Sniping was a lost art in Malaya. No evidence of it being performed in any of the war diaries nor is there any photographic (or other) evidence in the AWM. I have also spoken 'at great length' with Ian (I don't think anyone has had a short conversation with Ian - great guy).

---------- Post added at 08:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I'm sure that I have mentioned this before but in SVN 8-RAR had a small sniper section or at least 'trained' snipers run by Cpl 'Taffy' Bond that will be on record. I think son has hit the nail on the head about 'true'[ sniping in the 60's Australian Army. The No4's we had were definately an official issue because the Poms had the same until they withdrew in 1967.

Interesting thread

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Apart from Bond & one other attending a US sniper course in SVN, and conducting two trial ops (neither of which resulted in any contacts) with loaned US XM sniper rifles, Aust didn't do any sniping in SVN. I was able to confirm this with two of 8 RARs company comes, including Taffy Bond's OC.

"with loaned US XM sniper rifles,"

Some years back, I had my sticky paws on a REAL XM-21 (marked as such on the rear of the receiver), that resided in the armoury of one of the Brisbane based battalions. It was complete with case and had the correct glass on top. NOBODY from the unit concerned seemed to know what it was or how it came to be in their "collection".

I have not seen it again, but would suspect that it, along with vast amounts of other interesting goodies, has been "rendered innocuous", or simply sent to the smelter in order to make some people feel better.

Bruce, there is one at the SOI Museum. Not sure if it will be on display at the new premises, but we did not weld it...
Here's an old pic of it, sitting above an M82 PH... I think I know where there is another XM21

Attachment 35923

G'Day,
An old digger who served in New Guinea and Borneo told me that the "snipers" used the pattern 14 with peep sights. With the scoped rifles on offer, the telescope was prone to knocks and could not be relied on.

Rastis

Just had a chance to read through all the recent posts on this thread and noticed that I owe some replies. Sorry for delay - been overseas.

Ned / Lithy - Ned, my apologies for not introducing myself when I first started using this Forum but as a new member I wasn't sure of the protocols, and was a bit intimidated by the members' knowledge - my technical knowledge of weapons in general, and Lee Enfields in particular, is lacking. Oh, as to the Omark ... it will be covered in the book both as a trial rifle and as a stop-gap weapons betwwen the old SMLE HT and the arrival of the Parker Hale.

PrinzEugen - Yep, I will cover Korea (writing that Chapt now). I was lucky in being able to interview two old 3 RAR (?) snipers from Korea. They were actually a sniper pair in the closing stages of the War (oops, I mean the police action). Realy interesting interviews - neither had a chance to fire their SMLE HTs until they got to Korea, and then had to learn on the job. I guess that they were fairly good at it as we all know what happens to bad snipers in combat. A particulalry interesting aspect of our chat was their use of the early Starlight scopes. They thought these were a real pain in the arse as one of them had to carry a car battery to power the scope on night patrols. There was also a bit of info in the battalion war diaries at the AWM.

Peter L - Re the images you put up re the Pommie soldier with an MP40 ... there was also an Aust officer (9 Div?) who picked up an MP40 in the desert, brought it back to Aust and used it as his personal weapon in PNG. He used standard Aust 9mm amm0, but I don't know what performance or stoppage issues this may have caused. He lost the SMG in a contact soon after arriving on the Track.

Paul S - Re Aust use of the Rifle No.4 Mk.I (thanx Brad for reminding me of the correct label for this rifle) ... Members of this Forum gave me some great info to track our use of the No.4 in WWII. While not common, there were a number of battalion marksmen who got hold of one and used it in the Pacific campaign - they particulalry liked the No.4s aperture sights - but I don't know if they were any better than the SMLE H's aperture sights (anyone know answer?) Many of the Indep Coys / Cmdo Sqns also used at least one No.4 in each of their platoons / troops or patrol teams from about mid 1942 - don't know where they got them from. However, there's still no solid evidence of us using the No.4 T, at least I have been unable to locate any.

Son / Brad - The Inf Centre Museum is indeed a great resource for everything re Aust small arms (and those used by our past enemies). The Curator there, John Land, an ex ASM, has been very generous in assisting me with a nimber of the finer points of our, and German / Jap / Italian, small arms.

Bruce - As Brad said, Inf Centre Museum at SIngleton has one of the two XM-21 used by 8 RAR in SVN. It is operational and in very good nick. Not sure if it will be on display in the new museum building as the floor space is much reduced from the old museum. Maybe it'll be rotated with some of the other rarer items.

Rastis - A number of snipers did indeed prefer the P14's peep sights over the telescope. The scope was also very difficult to maintain and keep from misting-up in the jungle. Nevertheless, there were some snipers that persevered with the scope on the Rifle No.3 Mk.I* W (T), eventually worked out effective tactics, techniques & procedures and produced some amazing results.

Update - Some of you have asked how my research is going and if I needed any help, images, etc. I have written chapts covering the period of the Boer War, through WWI and to the end of WWII. AM now researching & writing the post-WWII period. This will be relatively short as while Korea is a very interesting sniper story, we did buggar all sniper work in either Malaya or Vietnam. The next chapt will deal with the post-Vietnam period and the resurrection of the lost sniper art in the late 1970s. LTCOL Russell Linwood (ex OC of the Sniper Wing, and the guy that got sniper trg back into the Aust Army) has been very helpful, as has Brian Manns, an ex sniper intructor at the Inf SChool in the early 1980s. The penultimate chapt covers more recent sniper ops in Somalia, East Timor and Afghanistan. I need to be careful with this chap due to OPSEC, but there is a lot of info in the public domain, and a number of current Army snipers and battalion COs have been very helpful. I wiil, however, have to keep away from Special Forces Ops (for obvious reasons). Finally, the last chap deals with the future of sniping. We have come a long way since the first Australian, SGT David Mortimer, attended the British Armiy's Sniping, Observation and Scouting (SOS) course in France in June 1916. And technology is allowing us to go even further.

Help - I'm doing pretty well with images - have access the all the Army museums, AWM image archive and Army History Units data base - but would appreciate some help with some of the more technical aspects of the book. If anyone out there would be able to read through some of my chapters to find errors (such as calling the Rifle No.4 an SMLE No.4) and advise me of any suggested corrections, I'd be very appreciative. If someone has a particulare period of expertise, such as Boer, First or Second World Wars, or even more recent period, please let me know.

Thank you to all the very helpful people that have assisted to date.

Cheers, Glenn

Glenn, Thanks for the update. I for one am really looking forward to your book being published.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I'd love to find one of the original S&B 3-12x50 PM telescopes with the Mildot too but I'm probably grasping at straws

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I managed to pick one of these up last year L17A1, though im afraid it isnt for sale as it sits lovingly atop of my AIAW

Here it is sorry if I have hijacked the thread

We put these onto our L96's to replace the original 6x 42 green S&B's These L17's are languishing somewhere now that the last of the old L96's have been withdrawn and destroyed.

Later we had another gizmo fitted to a modified/replacement front cradle cap. To be honest, your average sniper doesn't either a) want or b) need a lot of complicated kit. They like it best when they're lightweight and familiar with what they've got

What is that rifle might I ask Sapper?

Peter
The rifle is an AI AW with a heavy fluted match barrel I think the same profile as the L115 as it is bloody heavy, but I love it, I have shot a 49.5 at 1000 yds with it as well as dropping Fig 11 targets at 1100m it is much much better than me.
But not bad for a Sapper eh:madsmile:
I have seen these scopes fitted to the AW50's the EOD units use

I'd like to see a thread concerning these AI rifles but there just aren't that many around to warrant one I fear. Magnificent beasts but there's so many different variations. As for AI....... It should really read A! because their public relations profile must register rock-bottom on the management richter scale. Only the private opinion of one, shared my many I hasten to add

Peter
AI rifles dont seem that uncomon however due to their cost there will never be loads of them around, in their various forms there are about half a dozen at our club alone. the uncommon ones are the L96's we have a bloke with one which was released from the police (one of around 20 IIRC) but it is a genuine L96A1 and complete to CES, He paid quite a lot of money for it and has been offered well over three times what he paid to sell it.

I appreciate that we're going well off track now but back to the S&B L17 scope on the .50AI rifle......... Are you sure it was the L17 telescope you've seen? Or something like it? I ask because the 7.62mm range scale simply wouldn't lend itself to the trajectory of the long range .50. I seem to recall that during the trials the recoil if the rifle against the relatively heavy range and deflection turrets eventually tore the turret screws out from the inner sleeve of the telescope. It would/could also happen to the green S&B's on the old L96's But SUPERB rifles none the less.

Longebow and Brian Dick on this forum also have L96's

Peter I'm 99.9% sure it was as I also thought it strange, maybe it was an expedient lash up done for a short term answer this was about 5 years ago.
A very lucky few own L96's I do remember seeing one for sale but it was financially out of reach at the time, so my AW will have to do, ho hum lol.