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Hello Knowledgable '03 guys........Could you please check your SRS and/or DCM databases for Serial Number 1400918 /SA 7-31. There is a punch-proof mark on the ledge below the serial number, which leads me to believe that the receiver was forged at RIA and sent to Springfield for finishing. Thanks, Jason
The last identified RIA receivers used at Springfield were in the 1,302,000 range - I doubt your receiver was one of these. Could be see a pictures of the receiver and the punch?
Lots of views.......anybody find anything? WOuld really appreciate it.
I think we do need to see pics of the receiver roll stamp. if you can't figure out how to post them, pm me to get them e-mailed to me and I'll post them for you.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...eivertop-1.jpg
Not mine but I am watching and researching this particular example too. (Thats how I stumbled across this thread!) ;)
The finish on this receiver looks somehow strange to me, could it be that it had been refinished?
:thup: HIT!
M1903A1 NM DCM sales
The finish looks similar to those on a couple of rifles I have from the same era. That part may be legit. Still wonder about the DAL and the SA/SPG.
I actually got to see this one in person at the Syracuse Gunshow in April. The guy selling it was walking around with a "for sale" flag in the muzzle. He was looking to get $2500 at the time but that was out of my price range then. The stock is definitely recycled from the 1930 National Matches? Brophy mentions something about that though- I think he says something to the effect that any NM 1903 that wasn't sold off would have been rebuilt for the next year's NM? I'm thinking I made a mistake by not buying it at the darned show... 1903 NM rifles just aren't my thing though, I am more of a bottom feeder when it comes to these things. I like to have something I can shoot and not feel bad about, honestly this thing is just above my level of collecting.
The receiver still has that crunchy sparkley parkerizing look to it but I don't think it has been refinished- you'd have to repolish the insides and if you did that I think it would show up differently than it does. I'm no expert on NMs but it looked legit to me. Has anyone figured out the strange shellac markings on the butt? Was there anyone from NY who was in the matches with those initials? The info must be out there somewhere. I dug around for a day looking for it to no avail.
The SA/SPG inspection stamp came along a year or two after the rifle was sold according to SRS ... that is a mystery, alone.
When was this originally sold? at the 1931 National Matches or well after that?
Am I going to be kicking myself for not buying this at the gunshow? I KNOW I could have walked away with it for $2k... Still it is the sort of thing that is out of my league, I am the sort of collector who is content with "representative examples" not higher end stuff like this. :banghead:
Well if ever a thread would entice me to finally register here, this is the one. That's my rifle! :cool:
Been a long time lurker, and I'm finally glad to joing the crowd. I came across this thread earlier today, but had to work late so I just got the chance to sign up.
MPi: Yes, that was me at the Syracuse gunshow. I actually had an offer from a dealer for $2700 which fell through at the last minute. It didn't break my heart though, it was almost a relief that I was going home with it. It really is gorgeous, and I'm torn about selling it (still).
Yes, the two final inspection stamps present their own little mystery, don't they? I was of the impression that the DAL was the final inspection stamp on a 1930 assembled rifle (the steamed-out, yet still legible serial number on the stock) and that it (the DAL) was partially obliterated as part of an overhaul/refinish job the following year, and the stock was used as an original component to assemble this 1931 rifle, which was then inspected and stamped by SPG. BUT now I understand SPG wasn't inspecting until 1936 or a year or two earlier... So I'm wondering if the original build (1930) NEVER MADE IT to final inspection (and thus never received a final inspection stamp), and the DAL was actually the final inspection stamp for this 1931 build. If that's the case, logic would suggest that the SPG stamp came along later, as part of an overhaul in the 1936-1940 era (when Stanley was actually inspecting NM's).
It was interesting to see someone verify that this was a DCM sale gun. Does the listing tell WHEN it was sold through the DCM?
Although I've posted a ton of pictures in the actual auction, I'll try to post a close-up of the two stamps here in a little bit. I'd be glad to post any other pics if they would help.
Here are the three most germane pictures:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_5401-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_5357a-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_5360a-1.jpg
According to what I found out, the rifle was sold in Sept., 1936 as a National Match M1903A1. As I understand it, S.P. Gibbs (SPG wasn't inspecting rifles until 1937 or 1938.
YES! Thanks for that! I was searching rosters for 1931-1932-1933, I didn't realize it had been sold in 1936.. I just identified the initials, Charles W. Newell from Elmira NY, a member of the NY Civilian team in 1936.
http://dmna.ny.gov/historic/research...eport_1936.pdf pg 72
So it's likely been re-stocked, huh?
Wait he shot on the same team WITH a William S. Brophy from Yonkers? That surely wasn't the 1903 Springfield book Brophy?
Wait he'd have been too young then, funny though.
Yeah it has probably been restocked or stocked with a used stock? But if it was made ca 1931 and sold September '36 it probably got inspected, gauged, and returned to spec each year it was used?
I'm finding information contrary to this. Tom Findley writes the following on his website regarding Stanley P. Gibbs' tenure as an inspector:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian
S/N 1,369,761? - 1,548,601 1931? - 1939
This is the stamp of Mr. Stanley P. Gibbs, who worked at Springfield Armory from 1916 to 1951.
He became a small arms inspector in the early 1930's. The exact date is unknown.
The earliest rifle encountered that I know of is in the 1,436,000 range with a barrel date of August, 1933.
I have listed the starting 1931 year number of 1,369,761 as the start of his inspections. If anyone has more accurate information, please send it.
http://www.trfindley.com/pgsnstmps03.html
For what it's worth, Findley states his information is based on three different sources.
If this rifle was sold by the DCM in 1936, I'm willing to wager that it was overhauled prior to that sale and that Stanley P. Gibbs stamped it.
Amazing... I've been searching for info on these initials for nearly a year and wasn't able to find a thing. I hope you don't mind if I use this info. I'm extremely grateful!Quote:
Originally Posted by MPi-KMS-72
Sure feel free to add that info. The only reason I found it was because Rick the Librarian posted the sale date. Withouth that info I'd probably never found the roster for '36 with the guy's name.
Am I seeing 3 inspection stamps and 3 stock serial #s?
A buddy, now deceased, bought his '03 NM at Peryy after the Matches had ended. He was a Pvt. in the Calif. National Guard. He saved his money over 2 years during the Depression and got one after the matches had ended. His First Sgt. walked him over to the Army trailers and the Sgt. talked to the boss. Explained to him the Pvt. had saved his money and deserved a nice rifle. Well, at the end of shooting the Army downgraded the NM rifles into Service Rifle category and sold them off at a huge discount. The two men found a nice NM that had been only used in one match and sold it to my buddy. He kept it all of his life and was sold after he passed away.
Cool story- when exactly was that?
This story was told to me by Col. Meideros. A long-time Northern Calif shooter. He joined the Cal Guard mid-1930's. Perhaps 1935? He went back to Perry 1936-37(?). He said it was really tough saving up any money during the Depression, much less spending the money on a target rifle. He went on to OCS and served all of WWII in Europe. Retired a full Bird Colonel. A nice guy with fun stories. I was just sick when I learned his NM rifle was sold without telling me. I would have likely bought it.
It is a shame you weren't able to get your friend's rifle. Sometimes things like that just slip through our grasp and get sold off to someone else to whom they don't mean much.
I searched high and low today for a Charlew W. Newell from Elmira, NY. No real luck- at least nothing conclusive. Looks like that marksman is lost to the ages. OTOH I ran across a biography of Brophy that says he was an active match shooter in the 1930s so maybe he was one of Newell's teammates. Brophy would have been 21 in 1936 I think.
C.W.Newell was a PRR Asst.Superintendent in Philadelphia of T+E (Train and Engine) and prior M+W(Maintenance away) .The rifle was shipped by Rail,
And yes he was from Elmira,N.Y..
That's very interesting info. Thanks very much for posting this. Are these details in the DCM records, or from a different source?Quote:
Originally Posted by eb2151
I found this Charles W. Newell...but it says that he was from Dawnson, PA. Maybe he moved by time he enlisted/was drafted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPi-KMS-72
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Picture1-1.jpg
Just out of curiosity- is anyone else on that team still alive, has anyone researched any of them? I'd like to hear more about the stock markings from a team member.
It would be interesting to know if lettering your stock like that was a common practice among these or any other teams. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't, and Mr. Newell did it just to protect his purchase. I know $35 isn't much money now, but it was in 1936.
$35 was no small sum for an average soldier or every day workingman. What were the Army pay rates in the 1930's? I want to say that is a substantial portion of a month's pay back then.
WWII pay: http://www.usmm.org/barrons.html
Somewhere in the $17-21 range for a private.
I had ~$22 stuck in my mind for some reason, I can't remember where I read that thoughand thought I might be thinking of CW pay rates instead... ;) In any case they were not cheap for your average Joe.
As I recall, the rate was $21 a month until @ 1933-35, when it was reduced (along with all military government pay) because of the Depression to $17.85.
I have a 1940 or 1941 Soldier's Guide and I remember it listed pay rates. I do not remember them specifically and am away from home, but I remember that there was a monthly pay incentive for any additional skill/rating that a soldier had.
My dad (Navy, 43-45) used to tell me he'd keep $5 of his monthly pay and send the rest home to his mom & dad. That always impressed upon me in different ways. He'd say there wasn't much to do with the money in the middle of the Atlantic, anyway. Shore leave was a different story - in fact, right after my dad died, I found a telegram he'd sent his dad in '44 telling him he had a few days leave in NYC coming up, and asked if he'd wire him five bucks c/o the hotel he'd be staying at. It's a cool keepsake.
Rick has it right. They actually reduced pay due to the Depressin, as cash grew in value. Deflation, instead of inflation.