I know this has probably been asked a million times about 03A3's but.....

when and where were they used? I have done a little research when I first got mine and I still don't really know. I've seen like 1 picture of a guy in Europe with one and I think I saw one guy in Europe walking with one on the series, WWII in HD.

I have a remington and it's probably the only gun that is mostly indicative of WWII. Unmolested. My Carbine is a rebuild and I think my Garand is post WWII. I got the Garand and 03A3 from the CMP. But I really like shooting the 03A3. It's the only rifle I've shot at 600 yards. And I got on paper with it. I did put mine in a scant stock though. But I have the original too. Maybe when I get a chance I'll post pics.

I'm really wanting to own a weapon that is "What my Grandfather would've carried", that is WWII style. I might try and convert my carbine back to original, but I'm not sure. I'm still researching a little what I want to do. But I'd like whatever it is to be in actual WWII condition. Why? I don't know. Something to do I guess and I feel like I want to shake hands with my Grandpa who died in France when shooting. Probably silly, but that's what I want to do.

So.... were the O3A3's used for training or not? Or what. I've never really known. Is there a book on them? Is it possible my Grandfather shot one? He was a Sergeant in the 2nd infantry Division, 23rd I.R. I forget which company, I'll dig that out. He died in France on July 27th, 1944.


Thank you for listening.

M1903A3s saw service in training; also, as grenade-launching platforms. They were often used by "support units - artillery, MPs, engineers, etc.

My uncle served on the USS Wasp and went ashore to volunteer with the Marines. He told me he fought with an 03 until he found he couldn't reload it fast enough when they would Banzi charge. He took possession of a M1 Garand and things got a lot better for him.
He said the 03 was a fine shooting rifle, very accurate, but was limited with the 5 shot mag well.

As a Regular Army division in existence when the US entered WWII, the 2nd would have had M1903s (not 03A3). No way from here to tell whether they kept those until transitioning to Garands, carbines, and SMGs. By the time of your grandfather's death this transition would have been essentially complete in the ETO (for combat and combat support units including field artillery and engineer combat battalions, but not for many of the service units) though some '03's were still around for grenade launching. Poke around on the internet and find a source for a book on the division's WWII service which hopefully will contain a mention of small arms.

Immediate family can request the IDPF (Individual Deceased Personnel File) from the army.

The National WWII Museum | New Orleans: Honor: Research A Veteran

Not likely any mention of your grandfather's weapon, but it could give details about his death that may interest you. With over 500 sergeants in a 1944 infantry regiment, you need to learn what his assignment and rank were to begin to put together the answer to the weapon question. The answer may ultimately be indeterminate, but my guess would be that the 03A3 is the least likely choice considering the date of your grandfather's death and his rank.

Firstlabn, I disagree that the 2nd would have had M1903s - most of the regular army divisions had been re-equipped with M1s by December 1941. Even some of the National Guard divisions had received them. Obviously, they still had some M1903s for grenade-launching and other purposes, but the infantry units would have had M1s.

most A3,s were issued to black troops, most of the {action} pics iv seen with A3,s during Late WW2, were with black troops and A3,s as well.

Good point, Rick, but we're both really just guessing without more info. If his grandfather wasn't inducted until, say, 1943, it's all moot anyway. I had in mind a single digit infantry division, but couldn't locate the file. Turns out I was thinking of the 4th DIV which was also an RA unit and also embarked rather late. This report is from December '42. Since the 4th DIV still had '03s a year after US entry, it's not implausible that a similar early mobilization/late departure unit was in the same boat. All I need to do is win the lottery and I could add this question to my National Archives wish list.

View image: springfield barrels 4th infdiv 12 28 42 001

The OP may have to be content in the knowledge that his grandfather would have received familiarization training with all small arms, so he at least handled everything. Depending on when the promotion to sergeant happened, the 03A3 would still seem to be the least likely candidate. But that too is based on playing the odds in the absence of facts about the division.

The link listed below is from a quick Google '23rd Infantry Regiment History' towards the end their is a list of many of the officers and non-coms. There is a lot more info out their if you look at the division and regimental histories. Good luck!
Regards,
Jim


http://www.lonesentry.com/unithistor...try/index.html

These are great responses. Today I will go downstairs and pull all the details I have. I do know that I DON'T have the IDPF. That is something I'd love to have. I had tried to do research about 5-6 years ago and hit a dead end. Something about a big fire in St.Louis and if you pay money you can "possibly" get some kind of recreation of the files. I didn't know what that meant and I didn't have a lot of extra money laying around to stick into some vague info. I'll look into that link though, firstflabn, thank you tons!!!

What I do know is that his rank was Sgt., at least that's what's on his Purple Heart paper and the Death Notice signed by Roosevelt. Well, sort of signed. Pre printed. He was 2nd ID, 23rd IR, and I think I know the company, but I have to look through my stuff downstairs. I don't know if knowing the company would help. I think it was "F" company, but I'll double check. But no, I don't know what his "job" or M.O.S. was, which makes it tough.

I have been on the "Lone Sentry" sight many times. I also have a Division book. He is listed as KIA. But there is not much other details about arms and such. It's more of a history of where they were. There are some specific stories or AAR's of particularly heroic acts. I remember one or two in particular of guys getting so peaved at being pinned down in the hedgrow's or by German Machine gunners that despite having depleted their rifle ammo, they would crawl up with a pistol and kill the German machine gunners. Usually to their own demise. Give me the shakes just thinking about it. Anyways.....

Yeah, it's probably a pipe dream do know what he had. And more than likely it was either a Carbine or Garand. It seems like those two were the most ubiquitous for that time, place and unit. 2nd ID landed in Normandy D-Day plus one and did a bunch of Hedgerow fighting. Then of course they were there for the breakout. I forget what they did during the bulge. But I'm pretty sure they were there too. Then after the war they were stationed in Korea, where I think they stayed until present day. 2nd ID is the Indian Head in a white star on a black Sheild. I'm sure you've seen the patches.

It just would be really nice to know what he did carry. Especially if it was something different. So what I'm hearing is that the 2nd ID, because it was a unit before the war, which I know it was, would have most likely had regular 03's and the O3A3's would've been saved for either newer units. Yeah, the one pic I was talking about of a Soldier in Europe I've seen was a black guy. I didn't really want to mention it because I didn't think it needed to be pointed out. I didn't want to seem racist. But I suppose at the time they were probably segregated and might have had different arms somewhat. I don't really know the history about that though. I think they might have been used more for supply driving???? I thought I remember reading or hearing that somewhere.

Thanks for the responses. Any more info is welcomed.

Random photos are the most anecdotal of evidence. Anecdotes can serve an important role as a starting point, but are utterly unreliable as an end point. Data first; conclusion next. Blacks tended to be concentrated in service units, which, not so coincidentally, was where where many of the '03s were distributed. It makes perfect sense to assign '03s to WWII rear echelon troops. A few of the late QM unit T/O&Es I have seen show Garands instead of '03s, so it seems to have been a matter of priorities with service units coming last. The QM unit T/O&Es I have seen have many more carbines than '03s, so there's really not much interesting going on there except to point out the obvious that guarding supplies was an important duty for service troops and the '03 could mount a bayonet.

There were hundreds of different T/O&Es in the WWII US Army, and I have seen maybe four or five dozen. Those for service troops are very scarce. You might want to hunt up the Military Research Service on the 'net. The guy sells T/O&E transcriptions (I would guess mostly to wargame designers), almost all of them being combat units, and includes many freebies (including all echelons of the 1944 infantry division) on his site. Might give you an idea of the scale of your question.

Thanks for sharing your grandfather's story. The war can't be studied without looking at the big picture; its grand scale is one of the attractions. But the human cost was felt one family at a time and it's important to be reminded of that from time to time.

I understand the IDPF request can take many months, but may be free to next of kin. The amount of info varies widely, but can in some cases be extremely detailed up to including eyewitness testimony. Apparently those records were not lost in the fire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firstflabn

Good point, Rick, but we're both really just guessing without more info. If his grandfather wasn't inducted until, say, 1943, it's all moot anyway. I had in mind a single digit infantry division, but couldn't locate the file. Turns out I was thinking of the 4th DIV which was also an RA unit and also embarked rather late. This report is from December '42. Since the 4th DIV still had '03s a year after US entry, it's not implausible that a similar early mobilization/late departure unit was in the same boat. All I need to do is win the lottery and I could add this question to my National Archives wish list.

View image: springfield barrels 4th infdiv 12 28 42 001

The OP may have to be content in the knowledge that his grandfather would have received familiarization training with all small arms, so he at least handled everything. Depending on when the promotion to sergeant happened, the 03A3 would still seem to be the least likely candidate. But that too is based on playing the odds in the absence of facts about the division.

---

Interesting memo, but it doesn't say whether the Springfields were "here and there" or equpped whole units. Keep in mind that the infantry units (which, I believe, made up only about 50-60% of an infantry division. As I'm sure you know, there were a large number of support units - engineers, artillery, MP, etc. that could have retained M1903s. I have some charts of TO&E but, unfortunately, do not differentiate between M1903s and M1s. As an "educated guess", I would estimate that several hundred M1903s remained in each division, at least until the M1 carbine became more common.

I'm trying to follow up the leads you guys have given me. THANK YOU!!!!! I'm excited, or maybe hopeful, about the IDPF. Although, I don't know if it will tell me much. I did find some old papers and he was in "E" Company. I doubt that helps a me know what he did. But wouldn't and "E" company be a typical combat company? How many men were in a company? How did it break down? As far as I can tell, he was a normal ole Sergeant. He was turned down for a 2nd LT. commission as a Cpl. in 1942. November.

Hi ABPOS. Here's a photo I had on my hard drive that I thought was interesting. This black soldier on the left is carrying an 03A3 and an M1 carbine.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...swwii029-1.jpg

That's a 1903, not A3......and it would appear to be an earlier one

Great pic. I wonder where that is. But yeah, it's got the open, flip sight in front of the chamber. Regular ole 03.

I am getting ready to send off my request for IDPF. But I also found the NARA website and have printed out a thing to send off for the OMPF. I think they are both in different spots, but I don't want to send both and double the effort. As I'm sure they are busy. But the OMPF and the NARA are all about the fire of 73 and all that. But someone mentioned the IDPF's might not have been involved in that. So, I might send both. Unless one of you tells me it's not wise. I could send in the IDPF request that I'm requesting the OMPF from the NARA. But the place you send the IDPF is not the NARA but the TAPC-PAO.

I'm guessing if my Grandfather was in a normal ole rifle squad, which I guess a Sgt headed up, he probably had an M1 Garand. Or carbine. More likely a Garand??? And I've heard it said that most buck sergeants weren't issued pistols at all. You think that's true? But, E company might have had a mortar squad and machine gunners, I'm assuming they would have. And that might change what they would've carried. I guess a Thompson is possible too. But did they reserve those for someone higher up? I suppose it just depended on the unit. If someone has some ideas, I'm all ears.

Can't tell if it's an '03 or 03a3 but the pic was supposedly taken on Eniwetok in Feb 1944.

12-164 Garand Picture of the Day 36th inf Div

Italy

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ngfield6-1.jpg

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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...life_99m-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...06/deadd-1.jpg

Rick, my theory has always been that the generic, "Rifle, .30 cal." T/O&E designation might have been intended to bridge the transition to the Garand. Having seen revisions to correct very minor errors in the T/O&Es makes it hard for me to accept it was a matter of loose editorial control and not intentional.

On the Springfield question, the General Peterson mentioned in the quote is the Inspector General of the Army (not just an offficer in that office) commenting on reports of inspections of units preparing for overseas movement. Hard to believe he would spend his time worrying about a few rifles for support troops. Also hard to believe transitions were done piecemeal except under the most extreme circumstances. Non-divisional units were embarking at the same time, so lots of places to adjust priorities and keep weapons issue uniform within major formations. I would like to see reports of what must have been frequent discussions about these types of priorities. The Green Books do a good job of describing the general chaos, but only provide a glimpse here and there (like this one) into the details.

AB, the rifle company info helps narrow it down a little bit. Still have 7 different SSNs (job descriptions) for the 36 sergeants. With heavy losses, it is also impossible to say if your grandfather might have been temporarily serving at a higher grade in a different job. Maybe the IDPF will contain more info. By the book it was three carbines and 33 Garands for the 36 sergeants. Taking a dose of my own prescription, photos raise the question (but don't answer it) of rifle squad use of submachine guns. Photos suggest there were many more used than shown on the T/O&E (which lists none in rifle squads).

To get a general idea of what was happening on the day your grandfather was killed, you might email NARA at their 'Ask a Question' link and ask for a copy of the battalion S-3 daily log (or is it G-3 for battalions?) for that day. Shouldn't be more than a page or two. Should give unit location, movements, and a very brief description of other activities. Might give casualties for the day. NARA alternates between extremely helpful on some days and not being able to find their behind with both hands on others. A brief, targeted request increases your odds. Really work on the editing and be patient - three months would not be a shock. ETO, First US Army, V Corps, 2nd Infantry Division, what was the regiment?, 2nd Battalion. Good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firstflabn

Rick, my theory has always been that the generic, "Rifle, .30 cal." T/O&E designation might have been intended to bridge the transition to the Garand. Having seen revisions to correct very minor errors in the T/O&Es makes it hard for me to accept it was a matter of loose editorial control and not intentional.

On the Springfield question, the General Peterson mentioned in the quote is the Inspector General of the Army (not just an offficer in that office) commenting on reports of inspections of units preparing for overseas movement. Hard to believe he would spend his time worrying about a few rifles for support troops. Also hard to believe transitions were done piecemeal except under the most extreme circumstances. Non-divisional units were embarking at the same time, so lots of places to adjust priorities and keep weapons issue uniform within major formations. I would like to see reports of what must have been frequent discussions about these types of priorities. The Green Books do a good job of describing the general chaos, but only provide a glimpse here and there (like this one) into the details.

AB, the rifle company info helps narrow it down a little bit. Still have 7 different SSNs (job descriptions) for the 36 sergeants. With heavy losses, it is also impossible to say if your grandfather might have been temporarily serving at a higher grade in a different job. Maybe the IDPF will contain more info. By the book it was three carbines and 33 Garands for the 36 sergeants. Taking a dose of my own prescription, photos raise the question (but don't answer it) of rifle squad use of submachine guns. Photos suggest there were many more used than shown on the T/O&E (which lists none in rifle squads).

To get a general idea of what was happening on the day your grandfather was killed, you might email NARA at their 'Ask a Question' link and ask for a copy of the battalion S-3 daily log (or is it G-3 for battalions?) for that day. Shouldn't be more than a page or two. Should give unit location, movements, and a very brief description of other activities. Might give casualties for the day. NARA alternates between extremely helpful on some days and not being able to find their behind with both hands on others. A brief, targeted request increases your odds. Really work on the editing and be patient - three months would not be a shock. ETO, First US Army, V Corps, 2nd Infantry Division, what was the regiment?, 2nd Battalion. Good luck.

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Wow, great info. How do you now it was Second Battalion? Is it because of "E" company? I've never understood what a battalion is. But I do know he was E company. And fwiw, it was 23rd IR. But I get your point. I did print off the request for OMPF and I'm going to have my Dad sign it. We have the same name, so I'm just having it sent to me. Plus, according the the NARA, anything over 62 years old is public record now. But I think it mentioned you still might be better off to have next of kin sign for it. So, my Dad is next of kin.

That is a great tip about the daily log thing. And the "ask a question". I had not seen that anywhere on their website. I will do that. I did rejoin this group on yahoo.com for the 2nd ID and I've gotten a little bit more info from a couple of guys on there. I guess my grandpa was killed on the 2nd day of the start of operation Cobra. I think I knew that at one time, but had forgotten. There is one guy who's uncle was wounded on the same day, and another with a Grandpa, wounded same day. It's kind of exciting to hear about, for some reason.

Yeah, pictures seem to disagree with all rifles and 3 carbines, but when you're looking at pictures, you never know if one of the guys was from some support group mixed in with a rifle company. You know, like maybe a Recon guy was attached with a rifle squad and was just near those guys when the picture was taken. Or something like that. Artillery guys mixed in. I mean, I doubt they all stayed in a huddle with their squads and never went anywhere else. That would be impossible. At least, that's my assumption.

But the fact of the matter is, the pics don't always add up to what is "supposed" to be. I just bought an issue of WWII History mag, and there is an article about "The Bedford Boys" and the 1st ID on D-Day. There is clearly a picture of a LC with a guy with a regular 03 on board. With no grenade attachment. But I can't remember, did the 03's need a special grenade launcher attachment? I know the Garands did. And the Carbines also. But also in the LC, most guys had carbines. So, it might have been some kind of support group. In fact, almost everyone in there had a carbine. But I don't think it was a bunch of LT's all together. Anyways......

Vintage Hunter, too hard to tell from that view. Could've been either. But my guess is if it was Marines, it was an 03. But I could be wrong.

Roadkingtrx, GREAT PICTURES!!! The first two don't really show us "where" they were. Could've been training. There are a whole lot of 03's in that first pic. And the lovely A4...... What the heck are those things in the second pic? The almost look like film reels, but when I look close I think it's something else. And the 3rd pic is hard to look at. Ugh. That's just a regular 03. I see more of them so far, in combat pictures.

They are M1 / M1A1 light anti tank mines.
Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

They are M1 / M1A1 light anti tank mines.
Chris

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Aaaaah. Thank you!!!

AB, thinking about it, I would probably instead ask for the After Action Report - 2nd Battalion if available, or 23rd Regiment if that's the lowest level for that report. The reason I suggested the daily log was that I wasn't sure whether AARs were done at battalion level. Here's a link to another ETO unit's AAR to give you an idea of level of detail. Quality is going to vary pretty widely, so hope your unit had a good writer and the time to do a good job.

83rd Infantry Division Documents - 331st Infantry Regiment

Briefly, a WWII US Army infantry battalion was composed of three rifle companies, a heavy weapons company, and an HQ element. Total of around 800-900 officers and men.

Thank you for this!!!! I googled battalion yesterday and saw that. Yeah, E company, 2nd battalion. A-D is 1st, E-H 2nd, and I,K,L,M 3rd. No J for some reason and D,H,and M being the heavy weapons company. What does "heavy Weapons" mean? Artillery? Because every company had machine gun and mortar squads already, correct?

BTW, after looking at the picture real close again in WWII History, the one I was talking about earlier with the 03 and a bunch of Carbines with men on D-Day in the "Bedford Boys" article. If you look close, there is I THINK, an 03A3 further up toward the front slung over a soldiers shoulder. I think it's an 03A3 because the barrel band looks solid on top. There doesn't seem to be a cut out like the 03's had on top. I'm pretty sure it's an A3 that one particular guy has. If anyone gets that magazine.

Heavy changes over time and circumstances , but would usually include 81MM mortars , 30 cal M1917A1 water cooled , 2.36 bazookas , and sometimes .50 cal M2HBs , 57MM and 75MM recoilless rifles and flamethrowers. Usually 37MM M6s or 75MM packs were attached by other units being added on a need - to - have basis , but could go through quite a long period attached. Same for heavier arty and tank and transport units.
Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

Heavy changes over time and circumstances , but would usually include 81MM mortars , 30 cal M1917A1 water cooled , 2.36 bazookas , and sometimes .50 cal M2HBs , 57MM and 75MM recoilless rifles and flamethrowers. Usually 37MM M6s or 75MM packs were attached by other units being added on a need - to - have basis , but could go through quite a long period attached. Same for heavier arty and tank and transport units.
Chris

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Gotcha. Yeah, I was wondering about the 81mm. The Companies must've had the smaller ones at that level. Eh? Did the Army use the water cooled in France? I was assuming it was the air cooled by then, but I don't really know.

The M1919A4 and 60MM mortar was Company level . Remember though that loose weapons were everywhere , and if someone latched onto something and added it to the pile , nothing was usually said. That is how squads that were to have a single BAR sometimes had two or three . Same for pistols , Thompsons , etc.
There is a book that really lays it out you might get. i'll have to get the title and author if I can find it in all my stuff , I havn't seen it for awhile.
Chris

The 1944 T/O&E for the heavy weapons company had only one .50 cal. MG, 6 bazookas (two fewer than the regimental service company), and zero antitank guns (those were at division level in the antitank company). Bazookas were held as unassigned weapons in every company level formation of the infantry division. The recoilless rifles were essentially an experimental item tried out in the closing days of ETO combat.

The D-Day unit in the photo with that mix of small arms was likely a service unit of some sort - at that early stage maybe an ammunition supply company from ordnance (just a guess). I don't have any signal corps T/O&Es, but that might also be a possibility. The two U.S. assault divisions had 2500 man overstrenghts (replacements) attached that had '03s and carbines, but I know nothing of their landing place/time. Too bad nobody in the landing craft turned sideways to let us catch a glimpse of their shoulder patch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

The M1919A4 and 60MM mortar was Company level . Remember though that loose weapons were everywhere , and if someone latched onto something and added it to the pile , nothing was usually said. That is how squads that were to have a single BAR sometimes had two or three . Same for pistols , Thompsons , etc.
There is a book that really lays it out you might get. i'll have to get the title and author if I can find it in all my stuff , I havn't seen it for awhile.
Chris

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Yeah, I'm interested in the book! Thank you.

Firstflabn: Did you see that picture I'm talking about? Anyways, you're right, I didn't see any patches shown. I think they had assault vests though, hold on, let me look....... Nope, my bad, doesn't look like any assault vests. I don't know what that means. Actually, now that I think about it, I don't know if that was something that was ubiquitous on that day. I've read about them and seen them in SPR, but I don't know if I see a whole lot of them in actual pictures. Sorry, that was sort of an aside.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

Request for OMPF sent today!! I'm going to send the request for IDPF, because it's a different place. But I'll tell them I sent the request for OMPF to the NARA, so they don't double their efforts. Now it's a waiting game I guess........

I was watching a documentary called Iwo Jima: 50 years remembered last night and there was a video clip of a guy using an 03A3 as a grenade launcher. There was no mistake that it was an A3. And I'm pretty darn sure it was combat footage, all the footage in the documentary seemed to be from Iwo. So...... It was about 22 or 23 minutes into it. Somewhere around there. But you could see the profile well and there were no open sights before the receiver. You actually couldn't see the rear of the receiver, it was below the film, but you could see the whole rest of the rifle, pointed up while he shot the grenade off of it.

Anyways... I thought that was interesting.

Not disagreeing, but you often have to watch out for documentaries carefully. They often splice in clips from other battles and other wars.

Yeah, I don't disagree. I have no way of knowing for sure. It looked as if it was still on Iwo, but it was a closer in shot of 3 guys in a trench. I think I saw some shrubbery. I will tell you this, this was another one that piqued my interest. With about 7 minutes left or so, there was a guy ordering a Japanese soldier to get walking and I'm pretty sure he had an M1A1 Paratrooper Carbine. I was kind of blown away.

I would think the first question to be addressed in the grenade launcher scene is whether the shooter was a marine or soldier.

Yeah, agreed. I took it out of my netflix que. But if you're real interested, I'll put it back in and look them over better. I rewound them and looked at them 3-4 times the first time I watched. I'm pretty sure both of the shots were of marines, but I'm not expert. I need to learn how to watch it on my computer, take a snapshot of the image and copy and paste it in here. I don't know how to do that right now though.

My request for OMPF was denied. They said I have more records than they do.
This is from the NPRC.

They told me to look at:

Staff Daily Journals, AAR's and Operational Reports-Lessons Learned.

They told me to write to the:

National Archives and Records Administration
ATTN: Archives II Reference Section (NWCT2R)
8601 Adelphi Road, Room 2400
College Park, MD 20740-6001


Does this sound right? I know some of you have been down this road before. How
do I go about asking for these? My Grandfather was KIA on July 27th 44. I
have no clue what AAR's to ask for. Would they be dated for the actual action
or when the AAR was made. I would assume for when the action was. But then, I
wouldn't know exactly what days to ask for. Should I just ask for the preceding
week to his KIA status? Or two weeks? I at least know his IR and company, but
I don't know who his LT was. Did the XO do the AAR's? Or does that even
matter?

Any advice is very welcomed.

Thank you for listening to me whine.

J.J.


Another interesting tidbit. Over at the Friends of 2ID website, they are quoting some book by some guy that stated that the 23rd IR of the 2nd ID was commanded by this guy Colonel Fuller. And I guess he was enamored with bolt guns, so supposedly the whole regiment had 03's when they went to Normandy. I guess he was relieved rather shortly in Normandy for his mindset. Or something like that. So there is a good chance my Grandfather had an 03 (probably just a regular ole 03) upon arriving in Normandy, and fought with it a little while. Of course he could have had any other number of weapons also. I have no idea if he was mortar man or not. Or machine gunner or not.

Anyways.........

Ammo expenditures in the ETO were shown by 5-rd clip and 8-rd clip, so the info might exist. Here's a link to AARs of the 90th Infantry Division (another ETO unit) to give you an idea of the format. I cannot say whether the format is typical for other divisions or whether it applies to smaller units, but you can see that ammo expenditures appear only randomly from month to month.

AAR

What I have found in submitting numerous requests to the National Archives for records of this sort is that you have one shot - give them a succinct request for a single document and you have somewhat better than a 50/50 chance of getting a meaningful reply. Anything more and your odds drop quickly, resulting in a form letter advising you to come visit or hire a researcher. Private researchers get around $35-50/hr and you need to figure on at least four hours to have any chance of them finding anything (and 8 is more like it).

One of the main contributors on the 90ID site is Tyler Alberts, who is also known for his Combat Reels business. Try contacting him though the website and present your research aims to him. He could probably give you some good advice on how to proceed. Tyler is a great guy and has been helpful to me on several occasions. You won't find anyone more knowledgeable or dedicated.

Wow. Thanks for the tips!!! I'm not just interested in what he carried, although that would be really sweet to know, but I'm also interested as to what happened to him. Which I'm sure probably anybody is who had a relative die there. Or maybe some aren't. It's all just a big mystery. Which might be better left that way. But my curiosity has always been real high about the whole thing. Ever since I knew he died there.

Anyways....... I appreciate the help. A lot. Thank you. I might just do that, contact that guy. As far as I know, there are no places that the 2ID or 23rd IR have posted AAR's on any website. It would be nice though.

Here's another link to a division site with even more records than the 90ID. You might like to take a look at the National Archives finding aids list. My guess is that NARA prepared these from the packing lists that came in the original ETO packages when the Army turned over the records in the late '40s. The ETO published a detailed records retention policy that dictated what sort of records must be retained and which could be disposed of. Great mounds of stuff that we'd die to see were disposed of prior to the unit's return from the ETO.

7th Armored Division Document Repository - World War II Documents of and related to U. S. 7th Armored Division


I would probably ask for either regimental or battalion G-3 reports for the month in question - unless the commanding officer wrote an official AAR. It's not automatic that the smaller unit report is more detailed. G-1 report would likely mention your Grandfather as a casualty, but without any detail. If you get reports with six or eight digit map coordinates, repro maps with the grids on them can be purchased - or - there is an online convertor that translates grid coordinates into latitude and longitude. Western Europe has great coverage on Google Earth, so it is reasonable to think you could possibly locate where the battalion was on the day your Grandfather was killed. If he was buried in a lone battlefield grave, the IDPF could have grid coordinates of his initial burial location.

Color me dubious on the account you heard of the regiment retaining '03s due to the personal preference of an officer. If it happened, it was done through channels and there would be a document authorizing such a large departure from SOP. Anecdotes sometimes can provide a good starting point for investigating an issue, but they have a very low batting average for overall reliability - and it is almost always impossible to directly verify them.

Good luck. Get that request off to NARA - and then be patient. Sometimes they respond in 3-4 weeks, but average is more like 8-10 weeks. Might take you 3-4 tries as you learn more, but the info is there waiting for you.

OK, regimental or Battalion G-3 reports from the NARA. Thank you tons!!!!
But
As far as the rifle thing goes, I told those guys I was way skeptical. The author is some College Professor and I'm not sure where he got his info from. The only supporting evidence in which some of the guys were debating over is a photo of 2ndID guys walking up the hill single file on Omaha beach, D-Day plus 1 or 2. And the only rifles present are some carbines and 03's. The couple of pictures we were looking at I totally agree I didn't see any Garands. But I told those guys there's no way of knowing if they were support troops or combat rifleman. Plus, it's only 2 pictures. They said some of the guys that were there claimed it was for sure 23rd IR. Which still doesn't prove anything. Although I wasn't there and who knows, maybe the whole regiment didn't have any Garands. I have no clue. It does seem unlikely. But I figure anything is possible. Which is why when someone makes such a bold claim, it's hard to believe it 100% because there's no way to verify in it's entirety. Eh?

Well, as it turns out, your suspicions were well founded. Strangely enough, a good friend of mine knew one of the GIs in the foreground of the photo and was told the following: they are from Co. M, 38th Infantry. As 81mm mortarmen they were told their mortars were not a high enough priority for unloading and were temporarily assigned to Co. L as riflemen and given '03s - at least some of them were - an 81mm mortar platoon of a Heavy Weapons company was authorized 31 carbines, 11 Garands, and 18 pistols. Perhaps those armed with pistols got the '03s. The temp assignment lasted four days until their gear reached them.

Why anyone would even make a wild guess based on what weapons can be seen in the hands of eight or nine GIs is a bit beyond me. Maybe now the eager-to-guess crew will seek out the 38th Regiment's reports to confirm this account - a temp assignment to other duty would almost certainly be worthy of mention in a report. If these guys are serious about historical research I would think they would be satisfied with no less.

So, looks like you're back in Garand territory if your Grandfather was a rifleman. Do you have any documents like a discharge firmly establishing his MOS? Only 45% of rifle company GIs were assigned a Garand, so after the previous muddle, you might defer judgment again until you find a piece of paper.

Let me go look, I'm pretty sure the deceased papers showed 745. Hang on....

Now I can't find anything with 745 in it. His death report has an Asterisk and says "Combat Infantryman". And there is a box that is checked "Combat" right above an empty box that says "Non-Combat". So whatever his duties were, they were combat duties. I think it narrows it down to Rifleman, 60mm Mortarman or Machine gunner / BAR man. Because he was in E company. I suppose there could've been other jobs though, IDK.

He was turned town at Ft. Benning by a General Beale for OCC class 123. Or would it be OCS. Officer Candidate something or other. He was a corporal at that point.

As far as the photo goes, I'm assuming this is the one you've seen. There are two more very similar, but this one has the best views of rifles. One is evident there are carbines. And some kind of rifle.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

One guy on the 2ID site is saying the morning reports are the best way, and that the AAR's don't usually have mentions of individuals names.