Does anyone know if sniper rifles were issued to 2nd AIF for service in Middle east

Hi Guys,

In writing a book on Aust Army sniping I've hit a bit of a hurdle. Going through all the Aust War Memorial records (eg war diaries, Establishment & Equipment Tables, photo's. etc) I have been unable to determine if the 2nd AIF's inf battalions were issued with sniper rifles for their service in Middle East, Greece or Crete. This includes old WWI SMLE MkIII* T, SMLE Mk.III* H or even P14s. The 9th Div appears to have had them by the time of their defence of Tobruk in Apr 1941, and the Indep / Cmdo Coys had them in early 42, and the battalions had them for the Pacific Campaign (1942 on), but I can find no evidence that they were available for Western Desert Campaign (eg. Bardia), Greece or Crete, even though the Germans definately had proper sniper rifles.
Can anyone assist?
Cheers, Glenn

Where you get operations - and even peace time where you get pooled resources you'll find that units are issued with whatever's in the Ordnance dumps at the time. For a start, the desert isn't a suitable place for sniping but Greece and Crete, where the poms were, then if they had snipers you can bet your socks that the rifles will have been issued out to the others too. Whether they were odds and sods or the by then standard No4T is a matter of pure conjecture

That's just my experience with weaponry, vehicles, spares, vehicles and as one who's had to eat Gurkha or Malay food for a week or so, even rations!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Where you get operations - and even peace time where you get pooled resources you'll find that units are issued with whatever's in the Ordnance dumps at the time. For a start, the desert isn't a suitable place for sniping but Greece and Crete, where the poms were, then if they had snipers you can bet your socks that the rifles will have been issued out to the others too. Whether they were odds and sods or the by then standard No4T is a matter of pure conjecture

That's just my experience with weaponry, vehicles, spares, vehicles and as one who's had to eat Gurkha or Malay food for a week or so, even rations!

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Bit spicy for my liking!!

Fish heads and rice.


But to add to the original Question, An ex 2/2M.G Battalion member, who belonged to my rifle club until he passed, used to tell the odd story of using their best marksmen to protect the gun teams from sniper fire.
It seems that the opposition(not those ones with 5 reverse gears) would try to pinpoint the guns and take the crew out at the start of an attack.
He was employed in this role for awhile, it seems that being a rifle club man got you some cushy jobs sometimes.
I guess it was up to the unit C.O, but I remember reading something similar with one of the Inf. Battalions in the desert campaigns, 48th?

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Fish heads and rice.


But to add to the original Question, An ex 2/2M.G Battalion member, who belonged to my rifle club until he passed, used to tell the odd story of using their best marksmen to protect the gun teams from sniper fire.
It seems that the opposition(not those ones with 5 reverse gears) would try to pinpoint the guns and take the crew out at the start of an attack.
He was employed in this role for awhile, it seems that being a rifle club man got you some cushy jobs sometimes.
I guess it was up to the unit C.O, but I remember reading something similar with one of the Inf. Battalions in the desert campaigns, 48th?

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but did they have sniper rifles as we know it?
Could have been the 2/28th Bn.
korean rat packs are even worse!
French foriegn legion are nearly all tinned fish as well, at least the oes we had.
cheers fellas
ned

Shooting a rifle prone in the desert is like firing a WOMBAT anti tank gun in many ways. The most unpopular bit is that you can never hide the xxxxing dust cloud and secondly, you can be assured that they WILL see you and then the mortars start. The ranging shot will always be too far, but the next one will be on target!

There wasn't much sniping done in the desert and units which had got un-sniper-conscious in the Middle East had to learn the lesson all over again in NW Europe.

I'm afraid I would disagree about the middle east being all desert.
There is certainly a mixed bag of terrain, represented in the pictorial shots of our units there, ranging from loverly mediteranian climate areas, rocky mountainous terrain, snow, the list goes on.

It's not that muffer......., you've got to hide and stalk, gather intelligence and if need be, shoot. AND, be within walking back distance too. So while you're fighting armies that abide by codes of war, things are different but they change when you're not. And working afar in pairs is not healthy. I'd really like to be able to say more

That's now Pete, back then it was opertunity and high profile targets.
Stupid tank crews not closed down, anti tank gunners, patrols trying to pinpoint key locations.
Alex Starkey, the bloke I mentioned earlier, told me he was with a team training as a ski team to carry out the odd Op. but it was later canned.

Only a few things to add: read about an Aussie or Kiwi "sniper" in the desert who used a K98 for working close to the German lines. Presumably un-scoped, but that is a presumption.

Have never seen any photos of scoped K98s in Africa. Germans did use all kinds of other optical equipment however, and if it was usable, presumably rifle scopes would be as well. Same for our side, except our side was even more clueless in regard to sniping at that point than the Germans.

Read about an officer using a "private purchase" sniping rifle near the end of the African campaign; definitely a scoped rifle. No other details and I cannot remember the source now.

Should be possible to determine the equipment of formations from their organization: if they had a scout or sniping section, they must have had the rifles too.

If the rifles were on issue in Australia and NZ before the war, they would have been taken along surely? Troops, even senior officers, are not typically told where they are going until they are on their way. Too late to be dropping kit at that point, unless left on ships upon disembarkation.

Better ask the vets. DAK still has an association; somebody write them a letter.

Plenty of places to snipe from in the desert in those days. Knocked out tanks & vehicles being a prime one. Rocky terrain, darkness, adjacent MG or gunfire, early morning or late evening sun glare: all good cover for a sniper I would think.

Pete,
During training on the Vickers MMG we were taught to lay a gas cape under the muzzle to try to eliminate as much disturbance as possible. Probably worked better in training than real life?

Good point Arthur but the muzzle of the Vickers is 2 feet or so above the ground and STILL causes much dust when it's dry, even dry as in Salkisbury Plain dry. The Boys and a rifle in the prone position are 6" or so above the desert.

I hear what Surpmill says in thread 11 but the facts speak for themselves. Sniping didn't play any more than a very minor part in the desert war simply due to the terrain and vast distances. And regardless of the opportunities for hides, the sniper has still got to get there, hide, stalk to within 800 yards or so, kill, collect intelligence and get back. Oh, and I nearly forgot..... to carry enough water too. And if he hasn't got an escape route, the remainder is just an academic exercise

When people think of WW2 in the Middle east, I guess the general picture is of lots of rolling sand dunes.

If, however one were sent to the Levant, there was opportunity for urban, mountain and snow warfare.

I have some pictures of Oz SKI troops, complete with white smocks etc. somewhere in the files. Oz actually trained "alpine" troops in the Mt. Kusciusko area in WW2. When I dig out those pics, I'll try to post them.

As for Oz snipers in the big sand-pit? Unknown. At the start of WW2, about the only "sniper" gear in the system was the good old P-14 with Patt 18 on top. Several of these were apparently put to good use in Timor before the Japanese finally overwhelmed the place.

2 AIF (6 DIV I believe) also trained ski troops in the Middle East.

Attachment 350739 Div. Ski Company, trained in Syria, Disbanded shortly after.
I mentioned Alex before, all the best rifle shots from the middle east grouped together in one company, for one reason.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Attachment 350739 Div. Ski Company, trained in Syria, Disbanded shortly after.
I mentioned Alex before, all the best rifle shots from the middle east grouped together in one company, for one reason.

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And what was that reason?

Re read posts 4 and 10.
My understanding is that they trained as mixed sections, sometimes Inf. other times MG, but the primary role was to disrupt/discourage attempts to penetrate around fixed positions.
The use of top marksmen allowed them to use the advantage of range and height to discourage the opposition.
The use of scopes was not very common in the desert, due I guess to the difficulty to protect it from dust and bumps, my thought would have been reflection, my uncle, who was with the 2/3rd Anti Tank, (look for the surname in the official history) used to say the snipers trying to take out the gun teams could be spotted by the glint of the scopes.
So I guess we know the opposition used scopes.

We just tie a layer of face veil over the OG end of the scope - that's why you had two big full size face veils. They were originally about 4' x 4' square in either khaki, brown/green camo pattern or deep sand coloured! You can still see the target through the mesh net but it eliminates the glint or reflection. We still do it today. I'm sure that this would have been common practice for all armies especially for the big lenses on the spotting scopes. Try it and see for yourself. There is even a 'glare mat' specially made for the new breed of S&B scopes were using. Thin matt-black shutters. Same meat, different gravy.

The current snipers on desert ops are re-learning and debunking many desert myths as we speak. They're learning how it should be done from the Aden era/breed of snipers

British and Canadian Equipment Scales called for eight sniper rifles per Infantry battalion. I am under the impression that the Australian Army followed the same ES, regardless of where the battalion may be at any one time.
Failure to follow established standards would cause havoc in a procurement and, by extension, supply system. Based on this I would say that, yes, the 2nd AIF were issued with sniper rifles in the Middle East. Whether they were ever used is another argument.
Clive

when A young fella at boarding school,we had a house master who used to tell stories about how in north Africa they would have bets on who could make a tank commander pull his head down from long distance. He reckoned that it broke the monotony and taught the opposition to sit a little further away if they wanted to have a squizz. Cheers Ross