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I'm going to be looking at two rifles, both mid-1950s Mk4 NO.2.
One is still wrapped and in a cosmoline cocoon. The other was only wiped off, and fired 20 times. Is there any opinion on these rifles, the so called "Irish" contract that never was?
Since I'm not looking for an evaluation of a particular rifle...perhaps I can ask, what to mummified rifles typically go for in the open market? The unwrapped rifle is just as perfect (I assume).
First off, you've got the nomenclature bass-ackwards. It's Number 4 and Mark 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkingtrax
Market price depends on location and the relative desperation of buyer and seller. Around here in New England, if you really, really had to have them, you might pay over $1000 each. If the seller really, really needs cash, the pair could go for $500 or less. Some lost souls would even pay - or demand - more for paper and grease!
Too many numbers in these rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parashooter
Then maybe too many numbers in price?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkingtrax
What you're REALLY looking for is a value for both rifles isn't it? Just look at past gunbroker or similar auction sites and identify wrapped rifles that have been sold and that'll give you some idea. But they are getting fewer and fewer every year.
As for the unwrapped rifle, you only have the sellers word that it's fired 20 rounds and unless you are an experienced barrel viewer (and very few of us are.......) then the average enthusiastic amateur, even with the Armourers gauges, would be hard pushed to tell the difference between 20 and 2,000 rounds approx. (this is in what Armourers call its 'first quarter of life'). It is just an extremely good condition used rifle. On the other hand, you KNOW that the sealed one has only fired one (or two) proof rounds. Just my 2c's worth
Pay the required price, buy them both and get on with it.
The mid 55 rifles are beautiful to shoot.
I only have one, and wish I had many more.
That's my 5 cents wort.
Paul
I would just comment that the so called non-irish contract actual was a contract......Er............somthing like that.
In any case they did buy 50,000 No 4 MK 2 rifles, if you do a search on this forum you will fnd the details, they have been posted with the full serial number ranges and the debate over what is and what could not be an Irish contract rifle.
---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 PM ----------
Here is a link to the thread on this topic:
Couple new No 4 Mk 2's
As a little aside and not disputing the fact that Eire did have them, 50,000 rifles would equip every man, including the Officers, attached personell, cooks, storemen and bottle-washers in 66 FULL Infantry battalions. That is arming EVERY man with a rifle when in real life, 20% would have a pistol or a sub machine gun! That's 2 battalions per Infantry Brigade = 33 full Infantry brigades or at 1 Infantry battalion per Armoured brigade, that's 66 Armoured brigades. At Division strength, that's 10 Infantry Divisions or 3+ Army Corps and so on. That's a LOT of rifles for a small nation
Hello Roadkingtrax, Don here in Mesa. I bought a lovely blonde '55 (not a PF Irish contract) at the Rio Salado members swap meet for $300, not long out of the wrap. That's a really good price in the Southwest. Cheers, Don
Thanks for the advice, and sarcasm aside. :dunno:
I'm certainly not ignorant of rifles, I know very much about M1 Garands and 1903 Springfields...Enfields certainly have their ins-and-outs as well. I had hoped to delete the thread entirely as I found countless sources of information outside of Milsurps and here at home.
UF55A2517 and the unwrapped is UF55A25324
I have confirmed that the rifles are outside of any Irish contract, and know that I was speaking out of ignorance when I started the thread. Not too many numbers in the price, just seems that whenever I think of the model codes...my latent dyslexia gets the better of me. No insult intended if perceived.
I have also discovered that these rifles are not common, but certainly are not rare to any extent...the price reflects what I consider to be about mid-range, with the unwrapped rifle being less. Everyone says they shot 20 rounds out of gun, but I have no reason to doubt him until otherwise proven after inspection. There are tells of a well used rifle...as we all know.
Thanks for the info...and the mods are welcome to delete the entire discussion if necessary.
Roadkingtrax,
I was not intending to be sarcastic, if you took it that way. My response was meant to be read in a humorous light, not as a sarcastic answer. It just seemed funny to me that the non-contract…was a contract. This is the site for Enfields on the web; stop by a while and I think you will find it a very friendly place.
Your A2517 is in the range block where some rifles were accepted by Eire, the A25234 is clearly not in that range. The numbers in the 55A block received by Ireland is not known, but the best estimate I know of is on the order of 17,000 plus.
Capt. Laidler,
It is my understanding that Ireland found themselves very short of arms during the emergency, and that the UK gave them very favorable terms on the purchase of these rifles in 1953. I can only conclude they bought so many, when their actual army was only ~8,000 men in 1953 to be prepared for another major war and to ensure they did not once again find themselves short of basic arms. That is my assumption anyway.
It was shortly after this,( in 1961) that they sold the war time supplied M1917 rifles (~20,000), SMLE MK I rifles (4,105) and SMLE MK III rifles (~21,169) in one surplus sale. The best evidence indicates they retained ~ 10,000 SMLE MK III rifles (plus 500 complete barreled actions) after this sale in 1961, so they actually had a full stock of 60,000 .303 rifles from 1961 to the first surplus sales in the middle 1980s, when the remainder of the SMLE rifles were sold off into the trade.
I kinow that we're going off at a tangent here, but what 'emergency' are we talking about in Eire in 1953? Was such a peace loving nation/people fearing invasion? From whom? 'prepared for another war......! 'another' war........ that hadn't had one, yet alone another! The Nation was and still is (?) neutral albeit a good and sturdy member of the UN?
Capt. Laidler,
The Second World War is referred to as “the Emergency” in Ireland, as they stayed out of it. It was that period I was referring to. Sorry if my choice of words was unclear.
In any case the reference was to the shortage of usable rifles during the Emergency, or the period from September of 1939 to 1945, though the dire shortages were mostly resolved by the second quarter of 1942
Roadkingtrax
Did you notice that the price has gone up on the local listing? :thdown:
Thanks for the clue Ingstrt. I wonder how much it went up, the current asking price for the unwrapped is $550, the wrapped $750. Let's hope Roadkingtrax can do a bit better. Cheers, Don
I wonder if the seller is a lurker hereabouts and saw there was some interest.
Thats a chance. Its always a danger.
I suppose, he actually mentioned that was his intention...or at the very least eluded that he believed they were undervalued and was thinking of sending them off to Gunbroker.
I'll contact him, to see if he has agreed to "adjust" the price for would be buyers...I wasn't aware he had done so. I do appreciate very much the information presented to me here, and will keep any or all parties abreast of what happens.
Sorry about that, you caught me in a foul mood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkingtrax
$750 for teh wrappered one - I would get it if I had money. you never pay too much, you just buy too early.
....or too late.
No apology needed, I know too well what a lack of tone of voice, fluctuation and facial expressions can do to plummet spirited conversations. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
I appreciate the help.