Re the discussion on the photo of the day, here's a link to the Journal photos (cut and paste):
http://www.bulletinboards.com/TreeMs...Calling=No&x=x
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Re the discussion on the photo of the day, here's a link to the Journal photos (cut and paste):
http://www.bulletinboards.com/TreeMs...Calling=No&x=x
OK then. Now the mystery remains, what was the coating and when did they start and stop using it. Any info on that Bob?
Until very recently, I thought as you did that they were just worn. It needs to be investigated by observations.
Is it possible that knowing the finish was not staying on them they some were never finished? Maybe during a process change it was skipped simply because of high demand and the need to get the rifles delivered? I don't know. Just a stab in the dark :dunno: It sure is obvious that there is no dark finish what so ever or it is as you have made mention some other silver colored finish. My only thought on a finish is why? Why put a finish on stainless to look like stainless?
Agreed and it makes sence. They could be looked at as "We'll sort this out whan repair parts are avilable". Simple enough to pull rifles in for a five minute change of a complete assembly. It does look like they never had anything at all on them.
Or could the top brass were just being anal and had them polished out to look good for inspection ? They were stainless so would not rust , and if called out to war , a few seconds with a paint can could fix it.
Chris
Chris, if that were the case they would have had to soak them in an acid or something because there is no sign of a finish on them.
I agree with the no finish. The gas cyl on my Lend Lease is white & appears to
never have had any finish on it.
Tom
I think the LLs had finish, I have 328219 and it does. Mostly it's worn off though.Attachment 35624Attachment 35625 It's the ones slightly before I think we're questioning. At least that's my guess...Bob?
Tom, are you able to post a picture? It would be very nice to see an in hand gas cylinder in the white.
Not only does the gas cylinder, lock, and plug look polished but both bands look to also be polished. Leads me to think this is a D & C rifle. Some place in all my stuff I have a copy of an Army Reg. that states no Garand may leave the country or be deployed with a gas cylinder that is not blackened as described in TM……?.. Hate it when I can’t find stuff I know I have.
Right in the TM itself: TM 9-1275, Ordnance Maintenance, U.S. Rifle Cal. .30 M1, M1C (Sniper's) and M1D (Sniper's) dated June, 1947, paragraph 22b: "...Rifles with shiny gas cylinders must not accompany troops to overseas bases."Quote:
Originally Posted by JBS
The TM further goes on to state (paraphrased) that if no "advanced" finishing process is available, flat black paint will be used. The paint is applied to all the stainless parts: gas cylinder, gas cylinder lock, and gas cylinder lock screw.
HTH
Ben Hartley
I'm not sure where that leaves us though. Aren't these in Ulster? But that isn't an overseas base, is it? Er Wot??
Jim, another thing is I think we are talking two different things here. Polished gas cylinder vs unfinished gas cylinder. The initial description suggests unfinished. Jim, the LL you posted suggests worn finish. I am curious about Tom's and would like to see some detailed photos of the gas cylinder and whether it is unfinished, worn finish, polished or maybe as was said earlier some other finish like dull aluminum or silver paint.
This is a great thread guys! I would like to hear more of Mr Seijas' opinion on this too.
The gas cylinder photos linked by Mr Seijas shows it is difficult to tell if it is dull aluminum or silver paint or if there is no finish on it at all. If the latter, I would say it is unfinished and never was finished.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ylinder3-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ylinder2-1.jpg
Bill
I posted a number of pics in Feb. Search for "I scored a lend lease" If you need more detailed
I will need to take some.
Tom
See, your worn cylinder is very different from the white ones -- the whites don't look like bare metal to me, too white (not at all silvery) and too uniform. Also matte, not shiney. There's a coating on there IMO.
OK, so here's the pics of Tom Gray I think I scored a Lend Lease Garand!! His Gas cylinder lock screw shows finish and so does the back of the sight base at the bottom. I agree Bob, the one that's all clean looks like something devoid of blue or park. And matt finish. Not worn like mine and Tom's.
It is hard to say but Tom's looks devoid of any finish also.
Here is some more info. I believe full credit for these article belongs to Bill Ricca.Attachment 35628Attachment 35627
JBS, great reading however, if I read that right it is referring to black finishes. The first few mentioned may be a lighter color as they don't distinguish between black or other color.
Yes you are correct. I wonder, are there any markings at all on the unfinished cylinder? Can it be a reproduction? Metal surface just not the fine grain finish of an original unit. Almost like a sand cast copy from an original?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger
EDIT: I just noticed the Proof Punch mark is missing on the bottom of the bayonet lug.
JBS, I kind of doubt these samples are reproductions. The reason I say that is two fold, first you have a true subject expert, Bob Seijas, who is looking for answers and if it was as easy as labeling it a reproduction then that would be the end of it and no further discussion would be needed. Second, there are period and modern photographs showing this anomaly rather clearly. I am curious as to the photo links Mr Seijas posted and to whom this rifle belongs. A close inspection would be all telling.
Very good. Any speculation why the hardness test punch mark is missing or not where it normally is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger
No, none.
I have a December '41 Lend-Lease that has a gas cylinder like the one in Bob's linked photo. It is marked with an ampersand (&) on the upper flat of the rear ring and the number 5 stamped into the flat just behind the stacking swivel. There's no punch mark on the bottom of the bayo lug. It looks like it's unfinished. However, upon close examination there are small areas, particularly some of the more protected areas, that appear to have what is left of some kind of finish, probably the Molyblack stuff they were using back then.
The gas cylinder on Tom Gray's rifle looks like it may have had a finish on it too. You can see in the photo what appears to be a darker area on the lower rear part of the sight base.
Are there any markings on any of these similar gas cylinders?
Tom D, are you able to post close up photos of yours?
It may seem OT, but were any gas trap cylinders blackened?
Just trying to get a feel for changes in production.
Good point, I've never seen one blackened...
It's a very interesting subject, and I have been investigating it for several years for an article. Although all the Gas Trap cylinders found with original finish are a plum brown, I don't believe that's the color in which they were finished. IMO, they were black, but aged to brown with sunlight, handling, and oil. I have seen one or two with a black color in the protected area under the barrel. More work to be done on this.
Fellas, here are a few photos of Tom Doniphon's LL M1 gas cylinder to add to the discussion. It looks as if it has had a blackened finish to it at one time. However, it is not far from those that appear to have never had a finish.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...l_01_med-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...l_03_med-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...l_05_med-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...l_04_med-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...l_06_med-1.jpg
The yellowish coating is a tin of some type, like what's done for chrome. I used to see that while bead blasting .45s that came from Central America, and we bought them for resale. To park them we had to remove the chrome and that's what I looked for in the light of the blasting cabinet. I assume it's the coating used to keep the parkerizing on.