Hi all,
I have just bought a Lithgow made L1A1 c/n AD6421666 and was wondering if anyone has any info about it's service use or who it was supplied to?
Many thanks, John.
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Hi all,
I have just bought a Lithgow made L1A1 c/n AD6421666 and was wondering if anyone has any info about it's service use or who it was supplied to?
Many thanks, John.
Austrailian made in 1964...I'm not sure anyone will be able to tell for sure which unit carried it.
Made for the NZ Army
How'd you tell that Peter?
Many thanks for that info Peter, you really are the font of all knowledge! Curiously my example has a Fazakerley 1960 (F60) dated cocking handle and "E X" stamped into the inside base of the upper receiver (at the rear by the tip of the bolt carriers rats tale).
All the parts appear to have been together for a long time, so I can only assume these parts were sent to Lithgow to help with production start up or as patterns.
It currently has Brit plastic furniture fitted so I wonder if it ended up in UK service after leaving NZ ??
Over to you Peter!
Many thanks for the info, John.
Made for the NZ Army........... I just knew from the batch number.
The serial number of your rifle should be on the breech block, carrier, body (master number) and TMH. I would imagine that the rifle has been where there is pooled Ordnance stocks and if you order a cocking handle, you get a cocking handle that's in store. We didn't buy second hand rifles so you can cancell that thought but we did buy some new rifles and spares from Australia towards the end of the life of the rifle. The Australian rifles were considerably cheaper that the UK made rifles too! I wouldn't mind betting that the p[lastic furniture was fitted in the UK after it was deactivated
As Peter said it Sold to the NZ Govt. It was probably an ex Air force Rifle (RNZAF) as they seem to of had a lot of 64 dated rifles.
The "EX" is the Steel Batch Marking for the Body which was used in 1961
F60 Cocking Handle: Its not uncommon to have British spares fitted to a rifle that has been is service, like Peter said we didn't care when it came from so long as it was the right part that needed to be fitted.
The rifle was sold direct from Lithgow to New Zealand and would of had all Lithgow parts to start with. Its not uncommon to find British Plastics fitted to ex New Zealand rifles. The rifle would of been part of the 15,000 rifles sold off in the early 90's, most went to the US and some went to the UK along with our Stirlings, Brens, L2A1's and GP35 Pistols.
I wonder where my trusty old L1A1 AD6104714 ever went. It was a nice loose rifle and it would shoot all day and night with the gas port fullly open - just closed down 2 or 3 stops. Don't ask me how you ever remember these numbers!!!!! While talking of pooled Ordnance stockpiles, it must have been done on a pro rata basis because most (but not all) of our vehicles were pom Bedfords and big stuff, Australian type Land Rovers and NZ CAC made ammo
Peter, I'll keep my eyes open it might be floating around the US as a parts kit
Hi all,
Many thanks for all the help and info, I think the L1/fal really is the very best battle rifle ever designed, I like them so much I am buying a UK legal straight pull example next week!
Cheers all, John.
Just make sure that you follow the thread on this forum regarding the re-manufacture of sub calibre kits. GREAT fun with the added bonus that when you give up full bore shooting, you can keep the rifle for small bore shooting
We love those parts kits here in the States! Too bad they are long gone, now. :(
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My first private purchase FN was AD6405676. Was that ever a rough rifle. Looked like it went to Vietnam and was never cleaned...no finish left, rough front half of the bore and rust under the wood. Still shot OK and worked fine though.
Hi Peter,
I will keep a look out for .22 kit, that would be fantastic!
Cheers, John.
Well, I can report that its distant sibling, AD6113173, is alive and well in the American Midwest, and is an equally nice and loose rifle that will eat anything and thump targets longer than I can!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
What kind of furniture did yours have? Did it still have the solid wood handguards, or the laminated ones?
Solid wood handguards to start with when I got it but when the laminated (and FAR better to hold in my opinion) came on stream in 1967/68, I swopped them for laminated. Great rifle. IT would go like a train!
There's a good book on Australian SLR's titled......SLR...Australias FN-FAL.
Had one years ago when I had my two SLR's.
At the back of the book is all the batch numbers{by serial number} and where they were issued/sent/made for.
Weirdest place I've seen an Australian SLR was in Ghana {West Africa} whilst working there I took a trip to "Mole" national park to see the Elephants and a park ranger had one, so I asked for a look....and low and behold it had an Ozzie serial number.
I checked in my book on my next leave break and it did match with a batch made for Ghana.
The reason why Australia captured the largest export marked for L1A1's was because they were the cheapest price and at the same time, made a substantial profit too. It was also said that Australia had the most relaxed export rules in relation to exports to Africa but I don't believe that. They could make and sell cheapest
Interesting; I'd always figured it was because Australia had a much smaller military to equip than Britain, and so had the available production capacity sooner. I remember somebody (maybe you?) commenting that the British government was pretty ticked off at Australia over the whole thing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
What countries bought L1A1s from Britain? It's a shame there's not a book along the lines of Skennerton's work out there for Britain's L1A1s.
At the time of peak production, Australia had a big Army comparatively speaking, with 10 full-strength Infantry battalions AND support arms AND with 2+ battalions fighting in Vietnam AND a full battalion permanently in Malaya.
I don't know for sure but I don't think Britain sold many L1A1 rifles - they were just tooooo expensive! We tried to sell virtually new but certainly FTR'd L1A1's to the newly formed Lebanese Army in the late 80's but that failed even for a give-away price. although we did ''gift' zillions to the Sierra Leone Army - but enough said about them....... I think that they started to 'gift' rifles eventually but not until the 70's. I only have the saga piecemeal from the people I know and worked with. One of my bosses, WO1 Clive Connors had the full insight into the episode. Australia had to make a living and exports were valuable currencyespecially when the African Countries were paying in the £Sterling they'd received as foreign aid.
Another person who was well aware of the story was one of the members of the steering committee who was involved with the interchangeability of parts called Capt Steve Sxxxxxx from the SASC. He often used comment that Lithgow were always well ahead of the game, once they'd got the new machinery.
I'm sure that I have asked this before, but did Canada sell LB made L1A1's abroad? Gift them to foreign nations?
From what I understand, the Canadian government had a standing policy against any foreign weapon sales. So no, there were no Long Branch-made C1s/C2s sold outside of Canada. I'm told that they did try to sell parts to other nations that had L1A1s, but they were turned down as too expensive and too "oddball" in many cases compared to standard production.
Because of this, Long Branch Arsenal eventually lost its relevance once the Canadian Forces were fully equipped by the mid-60s, and was finally shut down in 1976. And because Canada dropped all their C1s and C2s in the shredder in the 90s (including 50,000 Colt Canada-rebuilt C1A1s in war reserve), all that remained were a comparative handful in civilian and police hands, and whatever parts were sold off as surplus. Needless to say, assembling a C1 or C2 of any sort in the States is a daunting task!
I asked about Canadian LB L1A1 sales because I never saw one in private hands. We had them at the big Base Workshop at Wetter in Germany and some of them might have 'gone around the block' due to our 'pooled' Ordnance stockpiles but even then, I only ever saw one LB L1A1 in British Service although Lithgow AD's were quite common. There's another LB L1A1 at Warminster
Did the LB rifle you saw in service still have the Canadian disc sight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I've heard it said that one of the big arms vendors in Canada is sitting on over a thousand C1A1s that it can't sell. Supposedly they're ex Ontario Provincial Police rifles that were initially sold to a British dealer, then when the laws changed the lot was purchased by the Canadian vendor, who brought them back to Canada...just in time for THEIR laws to change too!
Canadian parts were exactly the same as Aussie and UK parts. No oddball here.Quote:
Originally Posted by enbloc8
I seriously doubt that statement. By now they would have been broken down for parts kits and sold that way. Our laws aren't going to get easier any time soon in that area. Those that have them can't even take them out to shoot. No one would sit on immovable rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by enbloc8
Both the backsights on the LB rifles I saw were/are the bog standard UK spec leaf backsights.....
There's a thing BAR........ Backsights and top covers spring to mind. Both well used consumables that differ and if you need them you don't buy Canadian production OR UK for that matter as they were too expensive anyway
It's good to see modified Lithgow build L1's being used by NZ special forces in Afganistan.....got to give it to them...they get value for money out of their arms purchases!!!
Unconfirmed via my fiend.....He heard they came from the handful of reserve L1's kept by the NZ Navy for use as "line thrower" rifles.
Apparently when a Semi 7.62x51mm rifle was required for SF use....."they" raided the stores...... liberated a small number, tricked them out with US commercially available Picatinny quad railed forends and railed dust covers, then fitted a silencer.
The result was......so I am told, highly satasfactory......I hear (rumour) it was very well received because "gas off " single shot mode...it could be reach out and give someone the good news in a very quiet fashion!
Love to see some pics of these rifles
Surely................ you don't need the gas-plug-off mode for single shot fire. You just put the change lever to R....... no?
As I understand it - not that I or anyone knows of course - the NZ SF group are the anti-hijack/anti-hostage group in the cities as opposed to out in the wilds
I suppose so Peter re, gas dial as opposed to turning plug round , just repeating what I heard, NZ SAS would be sausage side I would imagine..along with their Australian colleagues?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
...who knows...quite rightly they remain the the shadows.
just shows what an adaptable rifle this excellent rifle it is though...still like to see some pics of the pimped up L1, to see if the rumor is true though!
Fancy writing a book on the British L1A1 Peter, gap in the market mate, I and many others would buy it!
Agreed on that point. Even at the end, the sights cost about $100 CDN to replace. Therefore we cannablized. Don't know if that was authorized though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The gas off will eliminate the action noise. But you knew that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
We'd occasionally fit the L2 trigger mech housings or components to L1 rifles during range days but while the fire-power was awe inspiring, they were useless to the point of uncontrollable. I expect the first couple of rounds might have hit the target (we used triple figure 11's) the rest went, well, anywhere really. I looked at a google image of the old range complex the other day. Good job that there was a zillion miles of jungle or bush behind it!
I'll admit it sounded puzzling to me too...C1A1 parts kits (or even individual parts) would find a ready and eager market in the States. About the only reason I could think of for sitting on immovable rifles is not wanting to take the loss on the books.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
When you say that you can't take an L1A1 out to shoot it BAR, does that mean exactly what it says..........? Not OUT or not OUT to shoot it? What happens if you had your own, say, 200 metre range that was on your farm?
Does it mean that you can OWN and POSSESS an L1A1 but not use it?
The weapons are not allowed to leave storage. Not outside. Not to be fired. Our laws.
Woweeeee, that is a severe condition.
Reminds me of a Mauser collector in the UK whom I know in passing who after a lot of tooing and froing and taking things to 'on high' was granted authority to add one of the automatic schnellfuer pistol to his collection. But the conditions attached to his 'possession' are soooooooo strict! A bit like BAR describes the Canadian L1A1's. He can possess but virtually nothing else
Best part is that aside from not being able to shoot them, you have your mags blocked to 5 rounds...picture it in your minds eye???
I've got lots of milled C1 mag catches and early C1 "beehive" body lock levers if anyone's in need. Plus a sprinkling of other parts. Just ask with your needs and I'll be glad to have a look. I have a fantastic reproduction C1A1 with an early Enterprise receiver and Australian barrel in the early 1990's that I still have and shoot. Bruce Dow in Florida installed the barrel and it's an absolute tack driver.
That's like being allowed to live with a Playboy centerfold model, but you can't take her out on the town, let alone....Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Zactly...
Here you go... moderators made by MAE...Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
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Aren't those hinge pin and lock screws wrong side up? Those would be fun...
The moderator is called NZDFL1A1. I have one on a '61 Lithgow, and the hearing protection was not required. Tried to source the rail hand guard and cover as well, but to find someone who would ship them outside US was, well, difficult...
What a nice gun...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
My issue rifle was AD6114742 and the rifle that I bought (second owner from the factory) was AD8400209.
---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Yep :)
Well they are Antipodean body Hinges...they are supposed to be upside down!Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Nice talk...now we're for it...Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
The West Side Boys - hmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Operation Barras was at least payback though.