Lithgow No1 mk III* nose piece fitting?

:surrender:Attachment 35677After obtaining a new forend form the nice folks at BDL and reading Mr Laidler's article on forend fitting many times I jumped in head first this week end on my debubba project. Following the instructions I marked, fitted,trimmed the draws to a very snug fit. I thought that was going to be the hard part until I attempted to fit the nose piece. Followed the same mark,fit ,trim procedure to obtain fitment to the forend.The problen arose when trying to fit the upper hand guard.
There is insufficent clearence for the metal cap on the end of the upper handguard to tuck under the nose piece.Thinking there might be some variance in tolerances I tried three diffrent nose pieces with the same result.
Here is the question. Is there a proper procedure for fitting the nose piece?:surrender:

:surrender::surrender::surrender:I hope the answer is not so obvious that no one will answer.

Go back to Laidlers articles, there should be one specifically related to nosecap fitting, if not, there is one by Tbonesmith, check the stickies and the archives.

Will do. Thanks!

I have searched and googled until my eyes are goggled and cannot seem to find an answer.
Perhaps a picture will spur some input. She cetainly looks better with an un clipped forend. I want to finish but am very reluctant about carving away at a new forend without some input from those with more expertise than I possess.:surrender:

Attachment 35716Attachment 35717

I can see your dilemma. I have also searched extensively and failed to find any suitable articles to give any qualified direction.

I will make my own contribution, hopefully this will prompt someone more qualified/experienced to also offer advice.

From the pictures it appears that you problem is 4 to 6 thou.

As I can see it you serveral options to get the nose cap to fit.
1. sand down the handguard so that it's overall height is lower
2. sand down the foreend so that the handguard can sit lower
3. bed the nosecap higher into the handguard
4. a combination of the above.

Once fitted you want to acheive a 4 to 7 pounds of pressure on the barrel and have the barrel line up with the hole in the nosecap.

I would be examining how much higher you can bed the nosecap into the forend and how much you can lower the height of the handguard

If you were to remove 3 to 4 thou of timber from the forend so that the nosecap bedded 3 to 4 thou higher:
- will this enable you to fit the handguard?
- how will the nosecap hole for the barrel and barrel line up
Can you remove a 2 to 3 thou of timber from the handguard, tapered back to nil at the barrel band, so that it sits 2 to 3 thou lower on the forend?
- will the lowered handguard still clear the barrel?
- will the lowered handguard now fit?

As every area that you touch will affect your bedding, I would suggest that you tackle the issue with a smidge at a time, fit and refit, rather than try to get it to fit on the first go.

I encourage other members to contribute.

Cheers

Paul

Your barrel is sitting too high in the forewood.
You need to ascertain why. Is the barrel clear of the channel except for the last 1.5 inches at the front? you should be able to slip a piece of paper under and run it along the channel.

Attachment 35844Attachment 35843
If not, you will need to deepen the channel,( the quickest way is with a sheet of coarse paper wrapped around a dowel) continually checking for clearence and nosecap fit.
If your forewood is new and unfitted, you will need to ensure the rear setup is correct first.
Without timber, fit your trigger housing to the action, ensure the spacer is in place. Measure the total depth of timber required at this point, allow an extra 1/16th for crush.
Now measure the depth of the cutout in the forewood, it's probably massive.
This needs to be corrected while also watching the fit of the draws and nosecap angle.
It's hard to describe, but the barrel angle is determined by the rear setup, you need to correct the rear, ensure the barrel lies flat with slight downforce in the channel, then line up the nosecap.
If this means removing timber from the front then so be it, but if set up correctly, it should require only minor adjustment of the topwood to get it to slip in.
Check the width of the forend in relation to the top front guard, this will determine if you sand the top or the bottom, ensure you maintain clearence on the top also.
Have fun.

Without the handguard on, the nosecap should slide onto the forend and over the barrel without any resistance between barrel and nosecap. The barrel should not clip the edges of the hole as it passes. Once this is achieved and the barrel is bedded soundly, i would think no more fitting of the nosecap should be required. Looks to me from your photos that you may need to remove wood from the flat underside of the handguard. I've got several unused coachwood handguards and all are consistently large in this way an would require individual hand fitting
Thats my untrained tak e on it. Hope it helps.

My suggestion:
When you remove the forewood from the rifle, will the upper handguard and nose-cap fit together?
If "yes", then the forewood and hanguard are not too bulky, but the problem lies with the position of the barrel in the channel - and taking wood off the forewood or handguard will just make things worse.
If "no", then the forewood and hanguard are too bulky: suggest sand away wood from whatever of the two pieces seems easiest. Do it in small repeated stages, dust talcum powder onto the surfaces before fitting each time, so you can see where the wood is rubbing together.

Thanks to all who have replied. I took a brief moment to read each reply (will have more time later) The barrel has no effect on the issue at present. The nose of the upper hand guard tip will not engage the nose cap when it is seated fully on the forend. I will try to provide a few more detailed photos which may help.

So the nose cap won't seat back all the way on the forend? AND the top wood won't fit under its retention point?

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Originally Posted by tbonesmith

So the nose cap won't seat back all the way on the forend? AND the top wood won't fit under its retention point?

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The nose cap seats snugly rearward on the forend with the horizonal screw hole lining up perfectly. With the barrel in place the relationship of the barrel to the nose cap barrel hole seems close.
I have not yet fitted the inner band assembly (on order). After reading all the posts I am thinking trimming of the mating surfaces of the forend and upper hand guard is the answer. I do not think trimming just the upper hand guard will provide enough clearance as I did trim the wood flush with the upper hand guard metal nose. I will post more photos 8/10 in hopes of clarifying the issue.

Here are a few more photos of the rifle nose cap in its present state. I hope this helps.
After reading your replys and examining the current configuration it seems as though trimming the mateing surfaces of the forend and upper hand guard is the best if not the only option. Is my accessment correct? If so would a planer table be the best way to ensure a uniform haircut in the forend? Thoughts?

I'd carefully use a hand plane and taper from the band to the muzzle. ie. 0 removed at the band to minimum required for fit at the muzzle. If you put it over a jointer the material will be removed evenly and that will mean the band won't fit and other problems. For me it would be a very sharp plane and the absolute minimal wood removal required for fit. Something does trouble me about putting the top of the forend out of plane, but where else will you get it?(the room for fit) As you mention it looks like your only other option is inletting the nose piece "higher" so the top wood will fit, but doing that will throw out the relationship of the barrel to the hole in the cap, ie presuming the rifle is bedded correctly now, and the nose cap slides over the barrel in its natural position, and you inlet it further so it sits higher (so the top wood will fit) the hole for the barrel will now be holding the barrel off the end of the forend where it was and should be sitting. So I think that's out.
If you're down to the steel returns on the top wood reinforcement, and the rifle is bedded right, and the nose cap fits properly on the forend and the barrel, I think you are down to fitting by relieving the top of the forend.

Please note this is only my opinion, and I am not an expert in this.

Another way would be to take the end cover off the handguard, thats the little steel bit with the rivets in it, and form follow and take it down the amount needed. re fit the little metal cap after filing the bottom level with bottom of the handguard and assemble rifle. This is if the bedding is correct. The rivets can be found at maybe saddlery or leather place or someone might have a tin here.
Doing it this way will not affect the fitting of the handguard onto the fore end. If you take just the bottom off the handguard and going by your pics, you will have to take some of the steel of the little steel cap.
OR get another handguard and try it. Have you any others to compare to? I think the timber profile at the end is too thick.
Cheers
Ned

Some good ideas here. I believe the wrist/draws portion to be bedded property. The area around the fromt action screw knox form not so sure. I am going to read back over Mr L's and some of the other bedding posts and check for proper bedding in those areas before moving on to hand guard/ forend trimming.If the bedding near the action is not correct the only way it is out would move the barrel down in relation to its current relationship with the nosecap. If it were possable to make modifications to the upper handguard only this would seem to be less costly if things do not go well (forend cost vs. handguard cost). Or I might check with Brian @ BDL amd see if he might be interested in doing the final fitting. This stuff is not for the faint of heart.

Place the front handguard on the fore-end, apply it's cap to the recess in the nose cap, and, if necessary, plane or file the upper surfaces of the fore-end until the cap fits and the handguard lies evenly on the fore-end.

That's straight from the C.O.C. Training Centre, A. 21 Lecture Precis No.46, Extracts From Instructions for Armourers, Revised February 1943. It's a real wealth of information for too many British and Commonwealth weapons to list and available here for $20 plus shipping. Get one while you can because I won't print anymore.

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Originally Posted by trooper554877

...end cover off the handguard, thats the little steel bit with the rivets in it...

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Actually, they're likely (usually) tiny screws. Which is even better! The wood under the handguard cap does seem a bit thick.

But you will have to remove some metal from the cap's lower edges. Shouldn't be a big drama, but...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Actually, they're likely tiny screws. Which is even better! The wood under the handguard cap does seem a bit thick.

But you will have to remove some metal from the cap's lower edges. Shouldn't be a big drama, but...

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Later coachwood caps were riveted. They look like rivets to me.

Perhaps this will be helpful -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/1fiwir-1.jpg

FWIW, the metal cap on this handguard is definitely riveted, not screwed.

Thanks Parashooter & Brian Dick. I will compare your mesurements to mine and post the results. I see I can trim a bit off the lower plane of the upper handguard bringing it flush with the lower edge of the nose piece engagement cap and then take Brian's advice and remove the rest of the material from the forend. The measurements will be very helpful in maping out a plan of attack.

Hey Para, that's a very useful and informative photo.

Before you remove any wood/metal, just check the area highlighted in my photo has not been bent down to tighten a previous loose fitting handguard.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...enosecap-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

I see I can trim a bit off the lower plane of the upper handguard bringing it flush with the lower edge of the nose piece engagement cap and then take Brian's advice and remove the rest of the material from the forend.

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Note that it's possible you'll need to file down the lower edges of the "engagement cap" - just remember to switch from plane to file before you hit steel. A touch of cold blue will dull the shine (hidden when assembled anyway) after any filing. Taking too much off the top of the forestock could leave a gap if the interior of the handguard bottoms out on the barrel, (as could cutting too much from the "lower plane of the upper handguard").

On my example, the joint between handguard and forestock was so well-done by the folks at Lithgow that it almost looks like a single piece of coachwood when assembled.

Here are the my measurements compaired to those of parashooter.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Hey Para, that's a very useful and informative photo.

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Very useful indeed. Gives me a benchmark from a production rifle. Now if I can get up the courage to take the file to mine perhaps it could look somewere close to that Lithgow workmanship.

Update. I first flushed the bottom rails of the upper handguard with the bottom of the nosepiece second I used Para's data to establish a bench mark for removal of material from the upper contact surfaces of the foreend marking them with painters tape. Then the fun began. I tried a hand plane but decided my tool and or my lack of skill made its use unadvisable so I removed all the material required with a flat bastard and a sanding block removing a small bit a a time and trial fitting the upper handguard. The results to date as pictured. The results are not perfect (a small bit of light visable at the seam with the forend and upper handguard assembled) which I may try to resolve. I did incorperate Bonesmith's suggestion to taper the removal if material from the forend to the front (nosecap end) which seems to have worked well as the fit between the upperhandguard,rear handgard and forend is pretty close for a novice. Some material will need to be removed from the barrel channel for a proper float so more fitting ahead.
I cannot thank all of you who contributed to my posting enough as I would not have attempted this without the guidance provided. I hope this post can help others with similar issues.

Looks good.

Paul

Does anyone have an old woodworkers trick for marking the contact/void points between the upper handguard and forend horizonal surfaces? I would like to tru the surfaces up for a snug fit.

First, get the top of the forearm true. This takes a long-sole (10"+) plane set for the smallest cut possible - about .001" - operated by someone who knows how to sharpen, adjust, and use it. Lacking that, use a long hardwood sanding block with finest-grit garnet paper. Once done, rub soft artist-grade white chalk on the true surface and leave the handguard bare. Press and rub together in position, then use a very sharp cabinet scraper to work down the high spots where chalk has transferred. Repeat until chalk indicates full contact. (Same process as fitting the bass bar on a violin. See Derek Roberts Violins - Fitting the Bass Bar for photo tutorial.)

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

First, get the top of the forearm true. This takes a long-sole (10"+) plane set for the smallest cut possible - about .001" - operated by someone who knows how to sharpen, adjust, and use it. Lacking that, use a long hardwood sanding block with finest-grit garnet paper. Once done, rub soft artist-grade white chalk on the true surface and leave the handguard bare. Press and rub together in position, then use a very sharp cabinet scraper to work down the high spots where chalk has transferred. Repeat until chalk indicates full contact. (Same process as fitting the bass bar on a violin. See Derek Roberts Violins - Fitting the Bass Bar for photo tutorial.)

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Excellent! I knew there was a trick. The fitting is presently acceptable but I tend to be a bit of a perfectonist to the degree possiable. I must also decide if I should replace the butstock with fresh wood.Coachwood buttstocks are avaliable NOS at a very reasonable price. Any opinions on if I should replace the buttstock? The original is not in bad shape but contrasts greatly with the new forend & handguard. The forend also has the wartime profile (rather large) as opposed to the current butt whis is quite slim at the wrist.