Can we discuss the reliability of M-1 Carbines?????

Probably from the title you all can tell this might be a loaded question.

So let me give you a little background, to fuel the discussion.

I have always been a big fan of the M-1 Carbine. When I first got into shooting, and decided I "needed" a home defense weapon, I had decided on the Carbine. I read an Article by that Thunder ranch guy, Clint Smith and he was praising it for certain people. Well, to be honest he was praising it for women because it was light and handy and easy to operate. Well, maybe more so than like say a pump action shotgun, for home defense. Well, I always love the looks, the mag capacity, the history, etc etc. It just seemed like the perfect deal.

I have never really been a recoil junky and the light weight, well, it just is so nice.

So, I got one. Well, it never turned out to be what I wanted it. I trusted any AR I owned 17 times more so than my carbine. Problem is, I like the traditionally stocked weapon better. They just seem to feel better to me.

So, the reason it didn't turn out the way I wanted is I could never get that thing to run good. I had major malfs when I first got it. And I did what you're supposed to do. I rebuilt the bolt, I got new springs from reputable places. The only think I didn't do was get that gas nut off off the piston and clean it out. But it would always pass the "blow" test. If you cover up the chamber and blow on the muzzle and that piston moves free, you should be GTG. I bought USGI mags. I rebuilt mags. I even had to rebuild the bolt a second time because the frickin ejector plunger busted. And something else. Of course any 30 round mag I had wouldn't work well. They would feed for about the first 20 rounds and then it would start spewing ammo out. But 30 rounders always had a bad rep anyways.

So, to further this, My Dad had bought one at the same time I did, and it didn't fare any better. I rebuilt his bolt, gave it all the once over. And regardless, both of ours experience jams on a frequent basis. Then, I was discussing this with a friend the other day and he has heard that they weren't very reliable also. And this is from a very knowledgeable gun guy who owns quite a few weapons and is not one prone to be duped by Gun Store lore.

So, since I've never asked on here, I'd like to hear the opinions. Is there something inherent in the design or execution of manufacturing that lends itself to them not being all that reliable? Am I the only one experiencing this? I don't have a problem with the fact that maybe I did something wrong. But I feel rather conscientious about all this stuff. I got my Garand to be one reliable mojo and I even had to work at it a little. And I've had AR's that have never malf'd, once. I have some that have also, but from what I could tell it was due to old mags.

Maybe that's the deal with the carbines, but I'm not sure I know where to get good ones. I have rebuilt some with kits from Brownells. But the rifle still jammed with those to a degree. It was better, but not what I would've like to have seen. Most of the malfs are FTE's or stove pipes even. I don't think I had too many not go boom if the hammer dropped, but I don't really remember. What I remember most is stovepiping and FTE's. It's been a while since I shot it.

So, you guys tell me, have you gotten yours to run well? Am I all wet and full of it? Do any of you shoot them extensively? I would imagine some of you do. Has anybody else been frustrated with the reliability of theirs?

I can give more details on mine. It's a Standard Products, arsenal rebuilt. If pics would help, I can take the time to put them up. I will say one thing, that I don't know if it affected reliability or not. Mine is drilled and tapped on the left side. I didn't know it when I bought it. My Dad actually went and picked it up. So I wasn't there to break it down. Plus at the time, I don't know if I would've known better to look for that. But keep in mind, my Dad's IBM faired no better.

Thank you for your time.

What are you using for ammo?

Hello Abpos, I can tell you my very modest experience with M1 30:

with 1 or 2 or sometimes 3 rounds in a mag, a used mag ww2, I have stovepipe or other feed problem every round.
When in the mag there are more than 3, 4 rounds, the first and second rounds don't stovepipe. So I think it's the elevator spring weak in that specific mag in my case.

The previous owner of my M1 told me: "ww2 ammo would cycle perfecly with the flat bolt, but the new made US commercial ammo are more powerful, would sometimes block the bolt fully opened". This is what he told me, suggesting to use a more heavy M2 round bolt he provided me with new rounds. I didn't have the time to shoot those US commercial ammo he was speaking of so it's just a report of someone else exp.

Have a great day!

My brother asked me to let him use mine for home defense next time I go to AZ, he qualified with a M1 Carbine at Lackland AFB in 1962; evidently the AR I gave him for the same purpose almost 2 years ago is too heavy!

I'll be following this thread to see if I can pick up any pointers, I don't recall having anything but an occasional FTF/FTF, but that is the nature of the beast isn't it?

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Originally Posted by USGI

What are you using for ammo?

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WWB and UMC. Pretty much exclusively. I don't recall any other type, and that's the two types I have left in the stash. FMJ of course.

I have done this and then have had carbines that function flawlessly, they gobble up any type of ammo:

Break down the carbine, then first completely and thoroughly clean all parts....inspect all parts for wear, replace any w/ non worn USGI parts, replace any weak/kinked springs. Pay close attention to trigger housing fit with the receiver-that's its assembled right, bolt, make sure it's assembled like supposed to be and clean too. Put a little light touch of grease where the op slide contacts the barrel and receiver, the bolt contacts the receiver. Test for proper head space, then when assembled run a few of those metal practicing rounds through it manually, make sure ejection is happening okay. Remember these carbines were tested intensely and perfected during the war, and helped to win the war. I'd think if any problems, the carbine needs some work and maintenance to get it going well. My guess is that it's currently functioning at less than optimal potential, for sure!

I have 12 different carbines from all of the makers during WW2 and I do not have any problems with any of them. Put a full magazine in and empty it right out with no malfunctions what so ever. As Rockwell said clean it and keep it that way and it should fire every time you pull the trigger.

I must have the lucky ones. I have a 6 didgit Inland,277k Underwood, and 222k Std Pro that i shoot 10-12 times a year. These are basicly untouched Mixmasters and I've had no mechanical problems. I've shot Wolfs [no more] , Winchester,pmc, and others. Now I shoot reloads. I use Military mags, 15 and 30 rd [that have never been messed with in over 30 yrs]. 30 rd are Hardback and split back. the only mag I've bought in the last 30 yrs are Sey[hardback], J, J underlined,AI marked off ebay, 10 for $200 and in inused condition. All I can say is in my opinion M1 carbines are 99% reliable.GK

I just picked up a 3.8 IBM off GB today. It was very dirty. Looks like it was used as a blaster a few years back with Wolf and not cleaned. A little rust around the gas piston nut on the housing. First time I have seen that. Gas piston froze. I usually don't disassemble the gas system but thought I should on this one. I could not get a .070" drill into the bore by hand. So I down sized to .06something" and got the battery drill. With some work I got the gas port cleaned out. Then put the .070" back in it and got it clean. I would think it would not have functioned correctly if I had not cleaned out the gas port.
Also the last two carbines I have purchased, the gas piston nuts were loose. So much soot around the extractor, I don't see how it would work correctly.
You know, when a gun quits working, it is time to sell it and pass your problems to the next person.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

I have 12 different carbines from all of the makers during WW2 and I do not have any problems with any of them. Put a full magazine in and empty it right out with no malfunctions what so ever. As Rockwell said clean it and keep it that way and it should fire every time you pull the trigger.

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Well I did that and more and it didn't work out that way. And if I'm not mistaken, it sounded like he (Rokwell) said he might have had ones too that were a problem. Was I reading that wrong?

Someone mentioned something, my trigger group was always a very sloppy fit to the receiver. But I don't see how that would cause FTE's and stovepipes. Could that be an issue?

What kind of mags do you guys use?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-1.jpg

Do you have any parts, or know of a carbine that works, so you can swap parts to try to find what is wrong?

I have been shooting and carrying M1 carbines as LEO duty weapons since the early 1980s. I could count the malfunctions in my personally owned and maintained carbines from tens of thousands of rounds on one hand. I SCRUPULOUSLY maintain my weapons, since for 25 years my life depended on them.

1) Make sure recoil spring is close to 10 1/4" long: degraded, short, weak springs can cause malfunctions
2) I have never had a malfunction with a US GI 15 round, and only several through the years with USGI 30s. There are no aftermarket 30s I trust, AT ALL!
3) make sure mag spring is in the right way: /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ long side to the rear
4) Make sure it is lubed properly
5) avoid some commercial reloads. BAC makes good ones, as does Georgia Arms. Avoid Aguilla ammo. underpowered, 150 to 200 fps slower than USGI. I use magtech or RP ammo exclusively.
6) a very sloppy trigger housing can cause malfunctions because it holds the magazines aligned with the receiver. I had a firends carbine that did this, DO NOT try to pinch the bottom lugs of the rear of the receiver tighter. They will snap off You can modify the lug on the trigger housing to be tighter.

The Magcatch, Catch spring and Plunger spring assembly are often overlooked.
Be sure they are clean, gunk free, and have a tight fit for your mags.

FWIW,
CH-P777

Just to clarify, when I say that I can count the malfunctions on personally owned carbines on one hand, that is AFTER getting it and going through it to make it optimally reliable. Usually it just took a detail strip and cleaning, a recoil spring, or bolt rework and cleaning if gunky.

Sometimes it is one of the above causing, it can also be a cumulative effect of several issues adding up to failures. Another potential problem not mentioned above is a slide with a severely worn lug that engages the the slot in the side of the receiver. I have also found that late parts (i.e. round bolts and type V or VI slides) are more reliable.

You can tighten the trigger guard by peening the the bottom corners of the lug on the rear of the trigger guard. Doing the bottom corners snugs it against the bottom of the receiver where it should be. Also use a M2 mag catch if using 30 rounders. Between the mag being loose without a M2 catch, and the trigger guard being loose, it multiplies the effect when both are loose.

APBOS: I have not run into malfunctioning carbines, the reason I break down & clean the guns is because as a kid, I went through one of those NRA shooting programs, the instructor was always drilling into our heads "clean the gun, clean the gun", "don't shoot a gun unless you have inspected it and know it's clean, parts are in good repair". So good or bad, I can't bring myself to shoot the guns I buy without going thru this ritual first.

I think Bubba 7 is right, when we buy these carbines we can be getting someones else's 'reject'. So many of these milsurp weapons I have bought look like they have not been cleaned in 30/40 years, it's scary to think to try and shoot 'em this way, but you just know ppl are, esp. when you buy a dirty carbine that has fresh 'soot' inside the op slide.

The carbine has to have a strong enough op slide spring to chamber a round and also to pull the bolt down over the bullet so the extractor can snap over it and grab it. In order to accomplish this action the op slide and bolt should be free to move easily too. When you fire the round, the bolt has to re-cock the hammer, and pull out the round, again, as freely as possible is best, no binding against the top of the hammer (i.e. worn hammer, mis-aligned t-housing). And the extractor and ejector have to have strong enough springs, and also move freely enough, to snap over and then kick out the round.

As previously mentioned here the op slide....worn ones can have play that should not be there, so much so that I've had some you could almost de-rail when pulling them back.
You can tell a big difference when you pull back the op slide of a properly spec'd carbine, it's tight yet smooth. There are many out there that are not.....just throwing out some more ideas for all you!!!

I think this might help me. Thank you guys for the input. I have always felt that my mags were always so loose when seated. I KNOW my trigger group has a real sloppy fit. And I think I have an M2 mag catch, but even that always seemed real sloppy. I'm not 100% sure I bought a new spring for that. Something tells me I did though. But maybe I could try it again. I did have the mag catch and safety completely out and cleaned with degreaser and lubed with rem oil I think. I watch those AGI videos. And do what he says. Although at the time I didn't use simple green like he uses to clean. I used some harsh thing. I think it was called gun scrubber. In a can. Anwyays, it was cleeeeeeean Rokwell. Like I said, the only thing I didn't take apart was the gas piston. I got the tool but never got it to budge and I didn't want to break anything.

I will check the springs on the mags to make sure they are in the right way. I don't recall if I knew this or not. I think I did, but we'll see. Those are great tips Imarangemaster!!!! I think this thing with the trigger group being sloppy could be part of my problem. I'm not sure I'm bold enough to to your fix, but I just might.

I have another complaint. I got one of those bolt tools and the dang thing broke after that second time I rebuilt the bolt. What the heck? Anyone else have that happen. It's things like that, it just seemed like my M-1 carbine experience has not been all that great.

And btw, my bolt is a flat bolt. Not round.

I have 4 M1 Carbines. One, my IBM, can shoot the nuts off a fly at 25 yards. And does pretty darn good at 50 yards. I use 30 round mags all the time in my carbines. The targets show me shooting 30 round mags as fast as I can reaquire the target. Lighting off 30 rounds in well under one minute. As you can see I do pretty well with them.

I did have one that when I got it would FTF or FTE constantly. But as ROKWELL said you tear them down, replace worn parts, replace the op rod spring, (which I think you should do with any that are not functioning properly), clean, reassemble then GREESE and oil them properly. I think a lot of problems with the Carbines is people do not Greese them.

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Originally Posted by Capt Mil Coll

I have 4 M1 Carbines. One, my IBM, can shoot the nuts off a fly at 25 yards. And does pretty darn good at 50 yards. I use 30 round mags all the time in my carbines. The targets show me shooting 30 round mags as fast as I can reaquire the target. Lighting off 30 rounds in well under one minute. As you can see I do pretty well with them.

I did have one that when I got it would FTF or FTE constantly. But as ROKWELL said you tear them down, replace worn parts, replace the op rod spring, (which I think you should do with any that are not functioning properly), clean, reassemble then GREESE and oil them properly. I think a lot of problems with the Carbines is people do not Greese them.

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I use grease and mine are spotless. I don't know how many different ways I can say it. I don't think "clean" is the problem. But thank you for your input. I'm not trying to sound rude. But I feel like I've been over this already and I'm pretty sure I cleaned it properly. As I do all my other weapons that have not given me nearly the amount of grief that my little carbine has. Garands, AR's, M1A's, and many autoloading pistols.

Sounds like you have had bad luck with the carbine. But there is no systemic problem known that makes the carbine generally unreliable. The only negative about the carbine in military service related to its lack of penetration as compared to the M1 Rifle. This wouldn't have been a problem if they had not overused the carbine as a main battle rifle. So, to compensate, they made it a select-fire, thinking more rounds on target would increase stopping power. That would have worked, but in the excitement of battle, it is suspected that troops fired over the enemy because of inexperience and recoil in automatic fire, at the same time shooting up all their ammo before the enemy closed with them. The answer was the M14 Rifle, select-fire with a slightly shorter round with most of the power of the .30-'06. Unfortunately for this truly great system, the AR-type rifle ended up taking it's place.
I've never had any trouble with my Inland, but I only shoot it every ten years or so. :)
I would guess if any of us here could get our paws on your carbine, we could figure it out right quick. There's no telling what you actually have, what's in it or who put it together. Generally, carbines straight from government stocks or prime foreign users like Israel or Austria can be counted on to work or at least have minimal problems. Anything else is luck of the draw.

---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 PM ----------

After going over your post again, I would soak the piston/nut area with penetrant and use a G.I. wrench to remove the nut and piston to get to the gas port. Ream the gas port, clean out the gas chamber and other parts, put back together and see if your problem was under-gassing. Messing with this area has ruined many barrels (cross-threading, cracking the gas block, drilling into the top of the bore, etc.) but is necessary if all other tests check out, like loading/extracting manually.

Im not saying you do. But when I was a rangemaster I would see FNGs with their M1 Carbines they got from Granpa, or Uncle George that passed, or the local gunshow. They had the habit of trying to close the bolt by hand. They did this even after I told them they had to pull the op-rod back and let it go to advance a round into battery. Instead they seemed to think that they had to hold the op-rod and push it home by hand. Something to think about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capt Mil Coll

Im not saying you do. But when I was a rangemaster I would see FNGs with their M1 Carbines they got from Granpa, or Uncle George that passed, or the local gunshow. They had the habit of trying to close the bolt by hand. They did this even after I told them they had to pull the op-rod back and let it go to advance a round into battery. Instead they seemed to think that they had to hold the op-rod and push it home by hand. Something to think about.

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No, I let her fly. The problem isn't typically the first round in. Although I'm sure it has been at times. It seemed to be anywhere in the mag.

INLAND44. That probably would be a really good idea. Since I've never had it out. Like I said, I was always afraid of messing it up. As it was on there tight.

I am assuming that -like me - you keep your rifle clean and lubricated as appropriate. But maybe - like me - you do not have one of those bolt take-down tools. Having gained the impression that dismantling the carbine bolt was well-nigh impossible without one, the carbine was - up to now - the only one of my rifles which had not had the bolt assembly dismantled, cleaned and re-assembled.

Big mistake!

Training for an imminent competition, my (previously) flawlessly functioning carbine started to mess up the ejection. First one "half-stovepipe", then every now and again, then every single time. The cartridge ended up half out of the chamber, with the next round jammed in underneath. I had to finish the training session by loading rounds individually - very, very tedious!

At first, I thought that the extractor was badly worn, so that the rims were slipping out of engagement with the extractor as the case started to come out of the chamber. But examination under a watchmaker's eyeglass showed that this was not the case. The extractor looked fine - the trouble was simply that the extractor could not move in close enough to the bolt body to hold the rim reliably. I suspected a "foreign body" in the gap.

So I dismantled the bolt without a takedown tool. For those who have not done this, I can assure you that it is an exercise to be avoided. Nevertheless, I managed it, and discovered that the cause was not a foreign body, but quite simply hard-packed residues that required a brass brush to remove them.

For those who have not tried to re-assemble a carbine bolt without the takedown tool, I am now able to confirm that this is an exercise that is even worse than dismantling, and requires three hands with steel fingers. In the end, I had to make an impromptu jig to hold down the ejector stud while finagling the rest.

But having re-assembled it all, the extractor closed up properly, and is now fully functional.

Lesson 1) In accordance with Murphy's Law, you may have got your machinery 99% cleaned and oiled. It is the 1% you missed out that will cause you pain.
Lesson 2) If you are an active shooter, get yourself a bolt takedown tool a.s.a.p.

:wave:
Patrick

ABPOS: When I first started playing with these carbines I too broke the little 'finger' that's on the bolt takedown tool. It's easy to do it you don't rest it perfectly on the extractor plunger before tightening the screw. If you are lucky, you will find just the little swiveling part at a gun show, they are only about 10-14 USD, cheaper than buying a whole new tool. Just unscrew the broken one, replace with the new one. Good to go then. Also, when disassembling the bolt, it helps to put it in a big plastic bag, stick you hand in there with it. That way, when/if the extractor plunger or ejector zip out of the bolt, the bag will contain them, and you won't spend all day looking around the garage.....(happened to me too)

I've only had poor results with the Carbine due to aftermarket mags. MADE IN USA meant that one mag will work and the other won't because the lip is just a little bent. I mean REALLY little.

If the trigger housing is loose & wobbly on the receiver you can tighten it up laterally by squeezing the two front lugs of the trigger housing in a vise to pinch them tighter against the front receiver lug when assembled. This is easier to do and less scary than peening the rear trigger housing lug shoulders as noted above. The front trigger housing lugs are very maleable and will bend (without heating) easily with little ot no danger of failure. Just go slow & easy with the vise pressure out on the ends of the lugs and check the fit often so you don't over tighten the lugs. I pad my lugs with brass shim stock to avoid damaging the finish. If you do close the gap too much you can spread the lugs back out a little with a couple of steel wedges pretty easily. You can get a very snug fit on the front receiver lug and eliminate all of the lateral movement and rotation (wobble) in your trigger housing. This won't help any vertical slop at the rear mounting point (which is usually negligible) but it is easy to do and it will make your trigger housing mount a LOT more solidly on your receiver. If you do have a lot of wobble in a loose trigger housing this may a part of your stoppage problem. Forgive if my technical nomenclature is not 100% correct but I hope you get the point.

DO NOT TRY TO MODIFY OR 'TUNE' OR BEND OR PEEN OR MONKEY WITH YOUR RECEIVER FOR ANY REASON - IT IS EXPENSIVE, IT IS HARDENED AND IT WILL BREAK. hth

Yes me too. Started taking the bolt apart by hand before I knew there was a takedown tool for it. Did it a lot and got to be pretty good at it. But when I found out there was a tool to make it a lot easier I had one right away.

And the bolt tool is fast and easy to use. Makes taking the bolt, firing pin, extractor, ejector apart a piece of cake.

Ebay has repo pawls with bids starting at $12.
Or originals with buy it now for $12.
That is a good price. I paid $16 each in packs of ten many years ago.

repo
M1 CARBINE replacement pawl for bolt tool m1 | eBay

original
M1 CARBINE,ASSEMBLING TOOL SPARE PART, UNISSUED, GI | eBay

ABPOS – If you have become totally disgusted with the problems of your carbine; I will trade you a couple certified autographed rookie football cards of Aaron Rodgers for it.
Just a thought!
Good Luck, and by the way I shoot BOTH of my IBM’s weekly for the last year with no problems. Clean & lube after each use.

I re-read the reply's and didn't notice if this suggestion was supplied, but isn't the gas piston nut staked? If so that may be why he's having trouble removing it, and why another reply was that his was loose (someone had not re-staked after removal/cleaning), just a thought.

And another reason that it could be extremely difficult to remove I hate to say, is that someone cross-thread the damn thing when reassembled, again, just a thought.

Couple things here. First, thank you all for the responses.

Second, as expressed in one of my earlier posts, as far as the bolt goes. I bought the tool, rebuilt the bolt TWICE, and then the bolt tool busted. Some of you caught that, some of you didn't obviously. As far as I know, the bolt should be gtg. I'm pretty sure I always got my parts from BilliRicca for the carbine. I might've gotten the op slide spring from Fulton Armory though. I forget.

Thirdly, Sarge1998, very very good points. I forgot about the staking on the piston nut. It doesn't LOOK cross threaded, but it might not mean anything. I may have come to that conclusion a while ago not to futz with it because of those possibilities. Because I have the tool, and I'm not overly weak, and I could never get the thing to even budge. Although I don't think I put it in a vice because I was worried about hurting the barrel or receiver. If they made a tool like the AR has where it has a block that encases it, and holds it in place for your vice, that would be nice.

Fourthly. I was down there last night looking at it. I should've took pictures but I can if anyone thinks this has anything to do with it. I swear, any mag I put in there I can rock it forward and aft at LEAST 1/4". And same with left and right. And when I do, if I have the bolt pulled back, when I go left and right with it, I can see about a 1/16" gap between the receiver and the mag, or more. Is this normal? I DO have an M2 mag catch on there, and the mag seats directly against it. But the mag catch has a lot of play in it. That's where most of the movement is from. The mag catch seats directly to the mag, but allows for a LOT of movement. And then there is some movement in the trigger group. Not nearly as much as what the mag catch allows though. Someone suggested a long time ago to me that this is all normal. Is it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABPOS

The mag catch seats directly to the mag, but allows for a LOT of movement. And then there is some movement in the trigger group. Not nearly as much as what the mag catch allows though. Someone suggested a long time ago to me that this is all normal. Is it?

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Not if my extensive sample of 1 (figures: one) carbine is a guide. No trigger group movement whatsoever. Catch snicks in quite snugly, without any slop. But a friend who is an experienced carbine shooter has marked his mags which appear to be a bit "touchy" and only uses a specific mag for competition. My present brute force solution is that I have acquired 12 mags, which I only load with 5 rounds each in order to avoid using a large range of compression on the magazine spring. I shall see in two weeks how it works out in competition.

Two separate competitions (25 and 50 meters) with 30 shots at each distance. 12 mags, each loaded with 5 rounds, which means I have 100% reserve for each competition session, so if a mag snags I shall simply drop it and insert in a fresh one. And, of course, I shall test cycle the lot at tomorrow's practice session. At least, that is my honest intention - laziness may creep in!

Whatever the reliability verdict, I find that my carbine is a delight to shoot, and makes a holiday from my shoulder-pounding big bangers.

ABPOS:
IMHO, unless you are secretly the 'Man of Steel' (read Superman) you will have to put a carbine barrel in a vise to get any tight gas piston nut out. You just have to apply more torque on that skinny little barrel with that skinny little wrench than a man's hands can hold onto to resist. I put the flats along the rear barrel sides between two oak blocks in the vise with the barrel horizontal and the gas cylinder up. I lube the nut with penetrating oil well before I gently rock it lose with a little forward and reverse motion of the wrench to mash in the staking little by little and let the threads pass. I press the back side of the wrench head with my thumb hard against the nut to keep it from disengaging while I turn it. The wrench head tries to jump out of the nut recesses so I always mask the bottom flat of my barrel to prevent maring the finish if this happens. Also I make sure I am applying ROTATION ONLY to the nut and not applying any lateral force that might twist a swaged-on gas cylder on the barrel. I think this is best done by starting the wrench on the nut with the wrench handle in a horizontal position if possible. Most of the time you really don't have to exert too much force to get the nut moving. This operation is not hard and I believe it is pretty foolproof as long as you are carefull and use some common sense about how much force to apply to the wrench. If you are patient and just move it a little each way at a time the oil will get in and the nut will loosen up if it is not cross-threaded. It still may be a little stiff but once you flatten the staking and get a little oil in there it should come out of the cylinder with much less resistance. Others may have a better way of doing it but I have removed and replaced a lot of piston nuts this way and it has always worked well for me. The real danger is getting the nut back in without cross-threading it after you have cleaned the piston and cylinder - be very carefull, watch alignment very closely and do not try to muscle it back in with any more force than it took to run it out. Some recommend running a thread tap into the cylinder to clean up the staked threads but I have never found this to be necessary as long as I am very careful with my start-in alignment. I have not lost a patient yet. HTH

This eliminates the damage thread issue from the picture. And I would NEVER restake it.

A carbine that is not running well is usually in need of a new slide spring. It is remarkable how that one thing changes so many other little things that defy explanation. Cheap simple and usually works. The next issue is usually the mags. They are weak to begin with and the nubs that secure them wear easily. People tent to slam them in which accelerates the wear. Finally, I grease mine just like the big rifle, lots of grease as many parts are sliders.

I have a completely original 5.6 Winchester that has every part as issued including all the springs. It was used by me as a camping rifle for 30 years until I found out what it was. It functions flawlessly with GI or reloads. I believe this is because I take care of it, it is a low mile carbine and the chamber is clean and smooth.

Good fresh GI mags and slide spring and that thing will rock.

Thanks for the explanation on how to do it. Now to get enough courage to do it. Hmmmmmm......

What did you guys think about how much movement I'm having with an inserted mag? And where do you get "Good Fresh GI mags"?

Just a note on inherent reliability. In Germany during the 50's and 60's, we (rear echelon troops) were issued the carbine and were required to qualify once a year. My company had 250 men, each with their own carbine, firing around 500 rounds each during the week, including 300 yards slow fire. As "acting assistant armorer", I can assure you there were very few malfunctions, even at rapid fire. Also, there are no "good fresh GI mags". There are good GI mags and fresh mags, but the youngest of the GI mags is 50 years old or more.

This may be a beginner's question, but I still need to know the answer: should the tappet/gas piston be oiled or greased in any way? There must be a slight gas blowby through the piston assembly, as the piston/cylinder cannot have zero clearance. So does this lead to a "gas-cutting" effect over the years? And would/does greasing help, or is any grease merely blown out by the first few gas cycles?

Do not oil the gas piston, at Least not heavily. It will carbonize and burn. I have soaked it with GI bore cleaner, though, and then blown it out with high pressure air.

This has been an interesting read. I didn't see it covered in all the good comments but then I may have read over it.
Make sure the chamber is clean. Carbines never had a good chamber brush and this area gets neglected during cleaning. I use 9mm bore brushes and a short Chamber Maid rod, a flexible plastic coated steel cable, and clean from the receiver end.
You can also slide your cleaning rod in muzzle first then screw the brush in from receiver and pull it into the chamber to clean.

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Originally Posted by bonnie

This has been an interesting read. I didn't see it covered in all the good comments but then I may have read over it.
Make sure the chamber is clean. Carbines never had a good chamber brush and this area gets neglected during cleaning. I use 9mm bore brushes and a short Chamber Maid rod, a flexible plastic coated steel cable, and clean from the receiver end.
You can also slide your cleaning rod in muzzle first then screw the brush in from receiver and pull it into the chamber to clean.

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You know, after thinking about it and everything, this very thought came to me. I'm thinking it could be indicative of the kind of malfs I'm getting. Maybe the chamber needs a good working over. I don't think I've ever done it. I clean with a bore snake mostly. Although in the initial cleaning I think I used a traditional brush with hoppes down the bore. But I don't believe I ever worked on the chamber at all. Hmmmmm..............................

Thank you for the thoughts.

Let me ask this issue another way, you guys that have carbines that run, can you move your mags around a bit when they are seated?

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Originally Posted by ABPOS

you guys that have carbines that run, can you move your mags around a bit when they are seated?

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This needs to be quantified. All mags must have some tolerance, so there will always be some movement. But how much is OK, and how much is excessive? If members could measure the fore-and-aft deflection of the mags that work, and those that don't, maybe we could establish a pragmatic statistical result on the lines of "up to ... they seem to work, above ... they are increasingly erratic".

And to start it off: here are two of mine:

Reliable mag....0.126" movement
Erratic mag.....0.106" movement

But there are other factors - in this case, the erratic mag has a much heavier spring. Because of these other factors, it will take quite a few measurements to reveal if there is any correlation between end play and reliability. I observe that the bottom of the mag is pushed forwards almost to the limit of the play when it is locked in, so end play may be largely irrelevant.

P.S: I shall now give the chamber a good clean!

I cannot cite the source for this information but have used it for many years:

A new USGI 15 round magazine should measure 1.5 inches from bottom of retaining lug to top rear of feed lip using a micrometer. I found this to be a good way to check a good magazine that has gone bad. Usually find the measurement is well under 1.5 inches indicating the magazine retaining lugs are too worn for reliable feeding.

I've heard the 1.5" spec. before too, and consider it a "ballpark" figure. The only mag failure I've had over the past few years was on a "new" condition KSG Type 1 that had the lugs strip almost clear off the very first day of use. The mag dropped down so low that it would not allow rounds to feed.

The last several times I've gone out to shoot any of my carbines, I've been using the same (3) very worn looking mags: an IA, and two KSG's. I shot 6 boxes of reloads through my IBM in July using those three, loading them with strippers, and not paying any attention to which mags were in the gun. I had (2) stoppages (failure to feed) occur and never paid too much attention, other than figuring it was probably caused by the mags. After seeing this thread a few days ago, I measured all three of the suspect mags and found one of the KSG's to measure about 1.460" from the lugs to the feed lips. The other two measured about 1.480." Kuhnhausen's shop manual shows the spec. for this as 1.523" +/- .002". I have a very nice "U" mag that measures 1.490" and I just measured a new 10 rd. commercial mag and a 5 rd hunting mag (with the lug on the side) and they both are about 1.490." I've got several brand new USGI 15 rounders, but have never measured any of them. I used a dial caliper with one jaw across both lugs, and had the other jaw where it just contacted one of the feed lips at the very back of the mag. I'm going to mark the mag that measured 1.460" and see if it's the one giving problems next time I go out to shoot. I agree about the chamber needing to be clean. I've had powder residue or something build up in there, and it caused the appearance of tiny dents all over the cases when fired - it kept on functioning OK, though. - Bob

I have found that most aftermarket magazines use thinner sheet steel for their magazines, making them looser. This is especially true with the 30 rounders. Their lugs wear faster, and sometimes are less pronounced than GI.

I appreciate Kuhnhausen's work since I don't have the shop drawings and I refer to it a lot, but it should be remembered that .010" is 2-1/2 thicknesses of a sheet of copy paper. Might be that much growth from thermal expansion after firing a mag or two.

The system is composed of many parts that work together. The effect of a mag that's a few thousandths short could not be evaluated without knowing the relationship to the feed ramp. Would be interesting to see how the drawings detail that complex shape. A mag that's too short could be compensated for by a feed ramp that's cut (or worn) just a hair too much.

The intricacy of the design is so fascinating. Think of all that has to go right for the band spring to grab the barrel band properly. Receiver ring lip, recoil plate cutout, band spring hole, band spring notch, barrel band width, stock length, handguard length. All that for a static system that, other than the buttplate fit, is likely the simplest in the whole weapon.

A tolerance miss doesn't guarantee failure (except you can't have negative clearance), but makes failure from tolerance creep more likely.

I know that at least two of the mags I have are USGI. One is an IS and I forget what the other one said. I was just looking at it the other day.

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

I have been shooting and carrying M1 carbines as LEO duty weapons since the early 1980s. I could count the malfunctions in my personally owned and maintained carbines from tens of thousands of rounds on one hand. I SCRUPULOUSLY maintain my weapons, since for 25 years my life depended on them.

1) Make sure recoil spring is close to 10 1/4" long: degraded, short, weak springs can cause malfunctions
2) I have never had a malfunction with a US GI 15 round, and only several through the years with USGI 30s. There are no aftermarket 30s I trust, AT ALL!
3) make sure mag spring is in the right way: /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ long side to the rear
4) Make sure it is lubed properly
5) avoid some commercial reloads. BAC makes good ones, as does Georgia Arms. Avoid Aguilla ammo. underpowered, 150 to 200 fps slower than USGI. I use magtech or RP ammo exclusively.
6) a very sloppy trigger housing can cause malfunctions because it holds the magazines aligned with the receiver. I had a firends carbine that did this, DO NOT try to pinch the bottom lugs of the rear of the receiver tighter. They will snap off You can modify the lug on the trigger housing to be tighter.

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Can I clarify something in your post here? When you say "long side to the rear" for the mag spring, do you mean the peak should be at the rear?

Yep , carbine is backward from BAR , 1911s , Springfields , etc.
In his drawing , the bullets would be pointing up.
Chris

So the highest part of the spring is supposed to be at the rear? I'll have to check my mags. I think they were like that, but yeah, it seems like that would promote nosediving, making it harder to feed.

The carbine mag spring pushes up the cartridge base snug against the rear of the lips of the mag. A guy who had a class III shop had fits with his registered M2s feedong and had me work on them. All 4 magazoines he had had the springs in backwards. Switched them around and they fed fine. One even had the spring from a 15 rounder stretched out for the 30.

I'll definitely double check my mags.

I've always wondered if slamming the magazine in with the palm is detrimental to the health of these magazines. The system is really fragile when compared to say an AR. Additionally, were the 15rd magazines viewed as expendables thus many millions of spares produced?

That could very well be. I have had some people say that the production ratio was 1 carbine for 1 case (100) mags. There is no shortage of them after near 70 years of use , giving away , etc. , that's for sure.
Chris

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

That could very well be. I have had some people say that the production ratio was 1 carbine for 1 case (100) mags. There is no shortage of them after near 70 years of use , giving away , etc. , that's for sure.
Chris

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Years ago when new in the wrap USGI 15 round magazines were all over the place for $2.00 each, I passed on a sealed case of 100 magazines for $100.00. I thought who would want that many magazines? I was thinking, just not thinking very well.

Yeah, around 1987 I bought three cases Winchester, Rock-Ola, Standard Products for $250. Sold them for $2-$4 thought I was making a killing. Would love to have 300 mags to sell today.

I used to get them for about $1 a piece in the wrap from Yasha in the late 80s. Sold them for $5 each or 3 for $10 when I had tables at gunshows.

I didn't notice anywhere if you replaced the extractor. Stovepiping is usually caused by bad extractors. If the edge is worn, it releases the rim too soon and the case mouth bounces off the inside of the receiver abd the case doesn't clear the reciever causing stovepipes.

jimb16, your anaysis is spot-on. I have now replaced the extractor. Cleaning out the hard-caked residues was not enough.

Yeah, that was the frustrating part. I think I tried 2 different extractors. All USGI.

I just had a thought. If the tab on the charging handle end of the slide is too worn, it makes the slide sloppy. Just a thought.

If the barrel is properly indexed, tab wear won't cause stovepiping, even if the slide jumps track. Realistically, there are three things that cause 90% of stovepiping; a short recoil spring, a bad or cruded up extractor or a broken ejector/ejector spring. I've "smithed" nearly a hundred carbines. In every case where stovepiping was the problem, it was one of those three causes.

My rebuilt mag had the spring in the right way. I didn't tear down my USGI ones though. Hmmmmm..

My op slide has never jumped track. And I agree with jimb16 about stovepiping. But I still need to check on the chamber, the gas piston and there was something else.........

I appreciate the input.

I had ordered the replacement extractor with a 10-pack of magazines, as one of those I already had was still erratic with the new extractor. When I dismantled it, the spring was correctly oriented, but some misguided person had reduced it to a 10-shot by putting a block of wood under the spring.
Looking at the ten-pack, ALL mags had the springs the right way round. So if your mags are different, maybe someone's been playing...
I was amazed by the variety - nearly each one from a different manufacturer.

On the one-and-only serious practice I was able to make with the new extractor and mags before the competition, I put 5 rounds into each mag. There was not time to test every one, but all those that performed flawlessly had a lip form and spring tension that was very similar to my original "good" mag.

Those that were "iffy", and had to be put on one side, all had lips that had been bent in, tightening up the "throat" through which the cartridge has to be pushed into the chamber. I will bend them back to match the good ones, and try again.

So if your carbine is stovepiping:
- check the mag spring
- check the lip shape
- check the extractor
- check the ammo!

...but don't despair. There is a cause in there, somewhere. And a cure.

My carbine is now reliable: I won the BDMP Hessen competition at 50 meters, 3rd at 25 meters. 67 shots without a hiccup.

Sweeeet. Good job! Do you shoot those in all the same positions as a Garand match? Prone, sitting/kneeling, and Standing?

All prone. But there is such a competition - for more youthful contestants ( it was not held at this meeting). Not a suitable activity for Grandpa! For me, shooting in the kneeling position would count as "cruel and unusual punishment". I have even worked out how to clean my BPCRs without getting out of the prone position. Creative laziness is a skill you just have to develop as you get older!

But seriously, I observed that many other competitors were shooting in a manner that could be described as hectic. Self-loading rifles encourage shooters to be far too quick in taking the next shot.

The "secret of my success" - if there was one - was to take every shot as carefully as if I had been shooting a 22 match rifle. 60 shots for score in one session - it is very easy to get sloppy towards the end.

I agree with all of the above. I've done it and I see other people do it with autoloaders. I think when you have to hand manipulate an action, it has a tenancy to help you slow down your shots. But yeah, if you're aware of it, you can do it the same way with an autoloader.

Prone is fun. I get you on the positions. It's been a while since I've practiced sitting. My knees probably wouldn't like it now either. Standing wouldn't be bad though. Especially with the carbine. So light.

I just remembered working on a buddy's carbine 5 or 6 years ago. It had FTE/FTF problems. We replaced springs, (extractor, ejector, and recoil), and it still did it. I remoed the piston, and the gas port was very hard caked with carbon and corrosion, and partially plugged. Soaked it in Kroil and made a gas port tool from a drill bit (don't recall what size, though) with friction tape rolled around the smooth end so I could work it with fingertips. Cured the problem.

That could very well be the problem, as like I've said, it was the one thing I didn't do.

I do believe I got it to push out with the breath test, but it's possible that it just gets hung up a little too much. Or maybe the hole in the barrel is worn, causing it to be less affective. I don't know if that ever happens.

Stove pipes and FTEs?
I ran into that problem recently when I bought an M1 at a giveaway price of $635, Saginaw SG.
The seller evidently knew it had problems?
I had FTE and stovepipes...,,

I replaced the Op Spring w/a good spring, 10 1/4". Same problem..,,,
I changed the gas plug and nut. Same problem.
Just out of frustration I guess, I changed the slide. Problem left and has not returned. Slide was twisted slightly evidently and caused a Lot of misery.
Used a known, good, mag same every time. Problem was slide. Op Spring was Longer than specs call for, but not the main problem.
Anybody want to buy a type one slide?😱😄😄
DJ

This thread was brought back to life after a year and five months. Last post before today was 8-31-2012.

Maybe ABPOS will read this and tell us how it turned out.

I dont know about ABPOS but I learned a bunch, Thank you all. I have 3 carbines and 2 of them run well and feed anything I put in the mag including the speer varmiter bullet 110 gr flat point . The third is my latest and the nicest , a Winchester, it gives some feeding and ejection problem so far but now that I have some useful info to start with, I think it ill come around.
Thanks again all.
John