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I bought a M1917 this spring at a local gun shop, and took it to a local smith for some minor work. The smith reported that he was unable to work on it, because it failed the 14 thou. 30-06 field gauge (he measured it at 15 thou.).
I'm wondering what my repair options are (and rough costs). My primary use is 200 yd. target shooting, no benches. I'm not a collector, but I do enjoy the history.
I would not worry one minute about that. It's not a benchrest rifle. It's a very tough battle rifle.
And the M1917 has an extraordinarily powerful camming action. Unless he is familiar with these rifles, and closes the bolt very, very tenderly, it is quite possible that the gunsmith has actually compressed the gauge without realizing it.
I find 15 thou an acceptable value, if a bit higher than one would like, but then I always reload with necksized case that were first fired in the same rifle that is used for firing reloads. And I have seen 308 fired in a 30-06 and 30-06 rounds fired an an '03 that seems to have been rebarreled by Bubba with the barrel set out1/2 turn - yes, you read that correctly - 100 thou headspace. Ignition was unreliable, and the cases developed those bright stress rings near the base, but nothing split.
And an Arisaka with so much headspace (about 0.8mm) that ignition was erratic. After firing, the case shoulders weren't where SAAMI and CIP would like them, but the rifle told me (if I understood it correctly) "Japanese arsenals never heard of SAAMI".
Come on guys! We are talking about military rifles, made so that the user could drop a clip in the muck, wipe it on his battledress trousers, stick it in the rifle - and it was STILL expected to work. Enfields and most others did that. Ross rifles got the push from the troops when they couldn't take it.
DON'T FIRE HEADSPACE GAUGES. FIRE NECK-SIZED CASES FROM THE SAME RIFLE
Repair options - not required.
Costs - if you are a reloader, get yourself a neck-sizing die, or...
...Simply smear over the case shoulder with a felt-tip pen, set the full-size die back half a turn, and empirically resize and try the case in the chamber, moving the die up about a 1/16 of a turn at a time until the pen mark shows a bright line around the shoulder. Not just a speck of brightgness - you will get that from the skew of the case as it is chambered - but a reala line showing that the shoulder is making firm contact in the chamber. Then back off the die about 1/4 turn, clamp it, reload your cases and enjoy shooting the rifle.
i would find another gunsmith...have no idea what 15thou is..
buy a set of gauges and check it yourself.
not that hard to do...buy the tools and ill walk you through it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
= 0.015 inches, or 0.001 inch more than "the 14 thou. 30-06 field gauge (he measured it at 15 thou.). In a rifle with a huge camming action.
If the gunsmith, for instance, didn't remove the firing spring before using the gauge, he will hardly have been able to feel the contact between bolt face and gauge.
Buy a set of gauges for a one-off measurement? I wouldn't. Always use necksized reloads for old rifles.
It really is nothing to get into a twitter about.
My very first M1917 "failed" the "gunsmith's" headspace check way back in 1978 or 9. It's still shooting...
Most Gew98's will "fail" the headspace test. Most gunsmiths don't know how to check a M1917 headspace. I would make sure the bolt and receiver are from the same factory. Then I would stop thinking about it. Good luck.
Quite right. It's easy to miss the slight incline of the locking lugs on this design. VERY slight. Gives about 100:1 leverage on turndown!Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve
on rifles that cock on closing..felt resistance on the tool is pass, no resistance is fail. with cocking assembly removed.
no go, is 1.947 field reject is 1.950. i think your gunsmith was using .15 thou to impress you....
had he said...your rifle failed Feild reject..then id check a few things...
I bought a Clymer field gage, and (with the firing pin and extractor removed) I can close the bolt without touching it: I just shake the rifle and the bolt handle drops. I saw the "shake test" done on a M1917 where the bolt didn't close.
I took some Winchester commercial rounds to the range, fired 3x, reloading lightly (Lee Classic loader, 125 gr Speer TNT, H4895 using Hodgdon's "Light Loads for Youth").
The casings and primers seem OK, but I'm new to this, so I don't really know what I'm talking about.
If I neck-size only, should I trim to a non-standard length? In 3 firings, cases have stretched beyond max length.
Sounds like you really have got a rifle with a larger than specified headspace.Quote:
Originally Posted by CouldBeWorse
But if you were a reloader for original blackpowder cartridge rifles, you would be used to the idea that every rifle has to be treated as an individual. Especially if you want to get the best performance out of it.
But a case that becomes so long that it jams up at the mouth is bad, because this causes extra pressure by hindering the expansion of the mouth and the release of the bullet. - If you force in a slightly overlong case, the mouth will be crimped! So I would trim the cases to the standard length. Once you necksize they will grow very little. I have lost count of the number of times I have reloaded my match set of Geco cases (cases from the same lot, weight matched to within 1 grain), but it could well be into double figures, and only now are some reaching the maximum length. Good cases will last so long with necksizing that there is little point in keeping count. Just retire the whole set if any splits occur (I have never had one with my 30-06 cases).
Quote:
Originally Posted by CouldBeWorse
That's not normal.
Are you lubing the insides of the necks to ease expander ball pull out?
try another bolt and see if that cures the issue.
also, some early winchesters are know to have over sized chambers..
common issue with 17,s and 14,s is bolt set back, gualing of the locking weighs..not repairable.
I bought a couple of 1917 bolts, so I'll see how they do when they get here.
I also shot some Winchester factory ammo yesterday, deprimed, cleaned, neck-sized and measured case length:
2.492, 2.493, 2.493,
2.495, 2.496, 2.496, 2.497, 2.500, 2.501
6 of 9 were longer than the 2.494 max case length, after a single firing. I'm not sure how unusual that is.
I neck-sized and trimmed all my cases back to 2.487, but I suspect that 2/3 of them will be longer than 2.494 after the next firing.
I think that what I need is a neck sizing die that produces a cartridge which is 10 thousandths longer than a "normal" cartridge between heel and shoulder. Then it wouldn't need to stretch. Is that adjustable on a press? (I have the Lee Classic Loader).
Couldbeworse,
Have you seen or heard of the "RCBS Precision Mic". About $50.00 from MidwayUSA. It is a great tool to have on your bench when reloading for excess headspace. It is used to accurately determine the amount of headspace in a chamber by measuring the fired cases. The tool measures from the base of the case to the datum point on the shoulder. With the aid of the tool, you can use your full length resize die to "set-the-shoulder-back" .001, or .002 thousands when you resize. This produces cases that are custom fit for one chamber.
I have a 1917 with excess headspace. The bolt will close on a field gauge. Fired cases measured in the RCBS Mic were shown to be .006 to .007 over the ANSI minimum value of 2.0487, and still within the acceptable range for 30-06 headspace. Have had no problems firing or reloading for this rifle. It is always best to consult a professional gun mechanic on these matters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOS-45B
An excellent tool, if you have one. But I fire several calibers for which I would not be able to acquire headspace gauges, let alone an RCBS Precision Micrometer.
All my cases are fired fully sized once, and thereafter ONLY resized on the neck, so that the bullet is properly gripped. The shoulder is not set back at all.
The thinking behind this is quite basic. Brass can be handled to be anywhere from dead soft to fragilely brittle. Cartridge cases are made so that the base end is fairly hard, but the neck is noticeably softer. However, it is still elastic. On firing, the case expands to fit the chamber. Inevitably, the base will be pushed back hard on the bolt face. And the shoulder will be pushed forwards hard on the shoulder slope in the chamber. This will happen even in a 308 case fired in a 30-06 chamber.
So why doesn’t the fired case jam in the chamber?
Because the brass has some elasticity, and thus springs back to a size that is a mite smaller in all dimensions than the chamber. If it did not do so, the case would have to be driven out of the chamber by ramming a heavy rod down the barrel. And if the chamber has a widened region or a slight ring - caused, for instance by Bubba removing rust with a steel wire brush or abrasive paper on an electric drill - then that is exactly what will happen.
Please note – if cases jam in the chamber, you should check the chamber itself!
If your cases extract properly after firing, then you have no such problem and we can continue!
The once-fired cases are an exact match to that rifle. It would be ideal if you could use the same cases again, without any resizing at all. And that it indeed what bench-rest shooters strive for. Alas, this is not usually the situation for service rifles, as the chambers are typically so generously dimensioned that a bullet that would fit snugly in a fired case would be too large for the barrel. So we must tighten up the neck section before being able to reuse the case. But if those cases are ONLY going to be reused on the same rifle, then we ONLY need to resize the neck section neck section! Anything more is unnecessary reworking of the brass, which will, in time, lead to brass embrittlement and finally failure of the case. Of course, the elasticity can be restored by annealing, But let’s keep it as simple as we can!
If you ONLY neck-size the once-fired cases and ONLY use them in the same rifle, then the cases will last for a long time. And although it is ideal to have a neck-sizing die, if you do not have one, or they are unavailable for that particular caliber, then simply set up your full-length sizing die so that the shoulder is left untouched. I.e. set up as for full sizing, with the shell holder just touching the bottom of the die on the upstroke. Mark the position of the die in the press with a felt-tip pen. Then back off the die about half a turn (which is why it is useful to have the pen marking) but do not clamp it.
Now place a fired case in the press and run it up, while placing a couple of fingers on the top of the die. You should not feel any contact between die and case at this setting. Screw the die in until you just feel it making contact. Raise the die about 1/8 of a turn, run the case down and clamp the die ring. Now screw the die in properly. Since the clamping rings usually cause a slight shift in the die position, you need to check the setting. Use the felt-tip pen to ink over the entire shoulder and slope of the case, let it dry for some seconds, and run it up again. When you remove it, there should be no bright areas showing that the ink has been rubbed off. If so, set the die another 1/8 of a turn higher and repeat. When the ink on the shoulder and slope remains untouched, the setting is OK.
With this setting, you can produce resized cases that fit the rifle in which they were fired as closely as possible without needing expensive equipment. But you must be careful to use those cases ONLY with the same rifle. One shooter of my acquaintance and his wife both use Swedish Mausers. He once went to a competition alone, and erroneously took the case for his wife’s rifle. They did not fit, and the whole trip was an expensive waste of time. So be very careful if you use more than one rifle of the same caliber – keep the batches separate and identify them, or use cases from different manufacturers for different rifles.
One final dimension you must watch out for: case length. It is a bad idea to let the mouth of the case jam in the chamber, as this creates an iron-hard crimp, prevents proper expansion of the case and release of the bullet, and causes an increase in maximum chamber pressure. So check that the resized cases are within the maximum permitted case length, and trim if required. There will be a small amount of stretch, even with the rifle-optimized cases.
Ok, I finally received a bolt to try... Except I'm not sure it came off an Enfield as advertised. It's marked "X" instead of E/W/R, there's a serial number stamped on the handle, and slight differences to the extractor:
Attachment 36532
Attachment 36533
Yes that is a bolt off an Enfield - an Enfield P14.
Not an M1917, which is not an Enfield, despite the erroneous popular name of "the American Enfield".
The photo shows the shorter extractor lip and wider bolt face recess for the British .303 cartridge, which has a wider base than a 30-06. Don't even try it in your rifle! The bolt bodies are not interchangeable and the locking lugs are different!
If it was sold to you as being for an M1917, you have grounds for returning it.
As for neck sizing the 30-06, I only size about 2/3's of the neck, It's enough to properly support the bullet, it helps center the bullet i the throat (kind thoughts and all that), and the shoulder is safe from being pushed back.
If the headspace is on the long side, seating a bullet to engage the rifling with a somewhat reduced charge will help minimize case working on the first firing.
Just a little rant: I had purchased two bolts, to see if one might be a thousandth longer and get my rifle to headspace.
The first bolt, advertised on eBay as "1917 Eddystone Enfield Complete Bolt" turned-out to be a P14 bolt; and the second bolt, from a GunBroker seller, arrived today in a parcel weighing a total of 4.5 ounces (including the box).
Arg!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CouldBeWorse
Don't tease us! What was inside? Just the striker?
1911 magazine. It sounds like both were honest mistakes, and I'm just "unusually lucky" this week.
There's a happy ending to this one: the rifle passed a field guage test with the third bolt I bought. With the firing pin and extractor removed, the bolt handle stops leaving about 1/4" of space under it, instead of fully closing like before. As a bonus, the bolt is an Eddystone, like the barrel.
I haven't been to the range with it yet, but feeding from magazine is working properly. I also bought a Lee collet die, and am thinking of backing it off 0.010" (1/8 turn?), and making a Lee case trimmer that is 0.010" longer, to minimize unnecessary brass trimming.
Be VERY careful with case length.
Trimming is not just done to make things look tidy.
Case necks WILL flow during firing AND sizing, be it full or just neck.
At some point, the stretched neck will start to be forced inwards during bolt closure. On a helically-locked system like an M-17, you will probably not feel this extra resistance. You WILL notice the blown primers and bulged primer pockets, however.
What happens is this: With an over-length case, the angled step at the front of the "case" section of the chamber acts as a forcing cone on the cartridge case. Thus, the case is forced INWARDS; into the bullet jacket. This MASSIVELY increases peak pressure on ignition because the bullet is not able to start a gradual acceleration immediately after the primer has ignited the propellant.
Note that if you ever forget to load powder in a case, you may find yourself with a bullet wedged in the throat of the barrel, having been driven there by the power of the primer alone. It gets a LOT more exciting if you fail to notice the lack of recoil, noise and impact and ram another round up behind the stuck bullet and pull the trigger. It's one way to disassemble a rifle without a toolkit.
a way to take up headspace and i have use it before. is to have the back of the locking lugs on the bolt built up with hard chrome. it goes on in layers of about .004-.oo5.
.015"? I have an Eddystone with a chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length, full length sized, new factory loaded round, My chamber is longer by .016" than new (SAMMI) ammo. In the perfect world one school of thought says my chamber should be .005" longer than a minimum length sized case, that would make my chamber go-gage length and my new ammo minimum length, problem for everyone else, not me.
I am a case former, I am not a fire to former, I form first then fire, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.
My favorite case is the 280 Remington, the 280 Remington is longer than the 30/06 from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case by .051", By adjusting my sizing die off the shell holder .014" I can off set the length of my chamber with the length of the case. I have sizing dies, I have forming die, the forming die is the best choice to start with, then finish with the sizing die. again, I adjust the die off the shell holder by setting the die gap with a feeler gage, after sizing I chamber the formed case to determining if the case will chamber.
I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring.
The P14 and M1917 has a unique design, a go, no or beyond gage is not necessary when I determine the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, a smith at the Utah Arsenal took a lot of flack from other smiths, he did not use the go-gage, he did not use the no go-gage. I do not use any of the three.
When forming 280 Remington cases the reloader with a good understanding of the incline plain has 51 options from .000 off the shell holder to .051" off the shell holder, with 51 choices I can not see how they can miss.
I am the fan of forming cases from new/unfired brass, I have no problem using fired brass for determining the length of the chamber.
F. Guffey
Quote:
Originally Posted by CouldBeWorse
You don't need to make a complete case trimmer. All you need is a 0.010" washer on the threaded spigot of the trimmer mandrel, between the mandrel and the cutter. The practical problem is that most washers are too large in the diameter, and you will probably have to turn one down.
There are not many case trimmers I do not have, I will assume you are referring to the lee screw-on with the universal base. If I wanted to raise the cutter to add .010” to the length of trim I would add the shim in the form of ‘shim stock’ below the shell holder in the bottom of the universal holder, If I was R.Lee I would make a thicker universal holder then drill and tap the bottom of the holder ‘THEN’ add a screw for adjustment with 40 threads per inch as in one turn = .025”.
The same adjustment could also be made with a micrometer if the user understood the concept of .000 (zero).
F. Guffey
Bad habit: Need a bolt? Order a bucket of bolts.
Must have been and keep a secret, I have 25+ Springfield bolts, the maximum/minimum effect on head space between the longest? and shortest as in the effect each one has on head space is .001”. Not a problem for me, my problem would come when I wanted one bolt instead of a bucket full, I do not know one person anywhere that could compare my measurements with the their bolt measurements.
Again, I find it easier to adjust the length of the case than adjusting the length of the chamber.
F. Guffey
Two things - Don't rely on "experts" without verification! That is a fine old gun that would have always been "defective" to some. It just needed the right bolt!
Secondly, I have read great things about the RCBS "X-Die" that prevents case growth if used as per instructions. M14s - normally 3 or 4 reloads and scrap the case - up to 15+ with the X-dies. CC
The ‘X’ die is not sold with the understanding the case will not get longer, the instructions instruct the user to ‘first trim the case .020” ’. By the time the case requires trimming it will be time to start on another case.
From the beginning this thread has not been about the length of the case from the head of the case to the end of the neck, this thread has been about .015” difference in length between the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder when compared with the case length from the head of the case to its shoulder/datum.
“That is a fine old gun that would have always been "defective" to some” The Remington without the milled hole in the rear receiver sight bridge is my first choice. The Winchester is my second choice. The Eddystone is anyone's guess according to Roy Dunlap. I have an Eddystone that is cracked, Don W. has another.
15 firings and verifying, I am the fan of verifying, I adjust my dies every time I use them, I make my adjustment with a feeler gage then secure the die to the press with the lock ring. Others make wild guestimates of fractional turns or in degree converted to thousandths, Me? I skip the fractional turn, I skip the wild guess when converting degree to thousandths, I go straight to the feeler gage to make my adjustments, the verifier? The feeler gage is the verifier, it is a standard, it is a transfer. Good shop practice, I could use a height gage, I could use the dial caliper (small end).
Chambers of .015”+ is not uncommon with Eddystones, the long chamber is about as common as reloaders that insist on full length sizing, most reloaders are fire formers, they pull the trigger, THEN! they become fire formers, again I am a case former, I had rather move the shoulder back as in ‘case forming’ than move the shoulder forward, think about it, move the shoulder forward?
F. Guffey