New member, First time gun owner

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08-28-2012, 05:21 AM
DmsdyMachn

New member, First time gun owner

Hello. Like the title says, I'm a first time gun owner, and it happens to be a .303 Lee Enfield. I signed up here because the amount of knowledge on this site just astounds me, and from what I could see while lurking, you all seem to be really good guys.

Anyways, about my gun. All I know as far as history on it is it was my grandpa's, and he died somewhat recently. No colorful "stormed the beaches taking out the enemy scourge," or even "sorry, your princess is in another castle" stories behind this old girl.

I was hoping to get some help identifying it, however. Digging through the site here, I did find this post-- Enfield identification as being closest to what I have. So I know it's a sporterised gun, and possibly (probably?) a Mk. III, but I've been having trouble with some of the markings. I looked on some of the listed sites, but have just been getting flustered. Where people are seeing "England" or "Enfield" marked on their guns, I'm seeing nothing like that on mine. So thought I'd seek some assistance from the pros. I also have lots of pics, of which I'll share some.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0585-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0586-1.jpg
(The cat is interested in everything I do, no exception here)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0574-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0575-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0576-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0584-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0580-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0594-1.jpg
(This is the only place I've found that the numbers on it don't match so far.....relevant?)

I appreciate any help you guys can give me with this. And if I've made a bunch of newbie mistakes with the post, please let me know so I can remedy them. Thanks again!:)
08-28-2012, 05:34 AM
Patrick Chadwick

A hearty welcome to the best source of info on the "Care and feeding" of old service rifles to to be found on the internet!

As you can see by looking at the right side of the buttstock ring, you have a Short Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE) No. 1 MK III, originally made in 1916, by BSA Co., with the (from a shooter’s point of view) desirable pattern of backsight with a windage-adjustment screw.

What makes it unusual is that it was a No.1 MkIII* (i.e. arsenal upgraded), but the * has been cancelled.

The number on the receiver ring has also been overstamped, to match the barrel, and the left side of the knoxform (the “root of the barrel) shows proof markings and the Enfield inspection stamp above ’25 and a WD arrow. The backsight leaf has also been restamped to match.

Please note that the numbers have been lined out, not ground off. This was the usual method in arsenals, so that the origins of the parts were not falsified.

This all indicates that the rifle was arsenal refurbished and fitted with a new barrel in 1925.

The foresight ramp is, of course, not original to an SMLE. But it looks like it might be a piece of sheet metal stuck over the original foresight block, probably soldered, in which case you should be able to remove it, if you wish to restore the rifle to the original configuration.

If it shoots well, this might be worthwhile.
Unless, of course, one of the real experts chips in and says "that is an ultra-rare Fulton conversion" or something similar.

The 1907 type sling that you have was (and still is!) also prized by Enfield shooters, so you should keep it with the rifle.

Is the cat checking the headspace?

It's a Mark 3* which has been subsequently altered back to being a 3. Whether the cutoff slot is present is hard to tell from these underlit pictures. Rear sights that have been recycled onto several rifles in turn are common. It's had a new barrel in 1925 or after. And it's been renumbered to match the number on the barrel - possibly because at one time the master number was taken to be the one on the barrel (this changed eventually). Subsequently somebody's sporterised it, and installed an acceptable ramp sight in the process.

Patrick Chadwick, thanks for the welcome, and...wow! Thank you so much for all the info! This makes the gun even cooler than I had originally thought. My original plans were to take this and my wife's 1937 Mosin-Nagant in for custom thumbhole stocks (Keeping all the original parts, of course). I've yet to fire it, partially due to opportunity and partially because the way the gun sits now, the stock is way short on me. But now I'm wondering if I should just leave it alone, or set it back to original. And yeah, I think Z may have been checking the headspace. Hell, he probably knows more about the gun than I do. :)

Mk VII, as I'm new to firearms, I'm not sure what you mean by the cutoff slot. But If you'd tell me what/where that is, I'd be more than happy to add a better picture.

Thanks so much, guys!

Dmsdy

For your info. BSA is the Birmingham Small Arms Company.

The magazine cutoff is a small metal plate that pivots out of the right hand side of the receiver. Its purpose was to make the rifle a single shot with the rounds in the magazine cutoff for emergency use only. When pushed in the rounds in the magazine were held there. When the cut-off was pulled out, cycling the bolt would load another round from the magazine.

Might sound a bit wierd but the previous British rifle, the Martini-Henry, was a single shot with no magazine.

The magazine cutoff was a feature of a No1 MkIII but not a feature of the No1 mkIII*.

1907 ShtLE MkI*** (# X959)

Follow the above link. Pics 65, 66 and 67 show you what a cut-off looks like.

The lined out * on your rifle indicates that it was made without a cut-off but one was added at a later date. Most probably in 1925 when it was rebarrelled.

If it was my rifle I would seriously consider refitting the handguards and original foresight. The required parts are readily available. Then you would have a lovely rifle appraching its 100th birthday.

On the option of fitting a thumbhole stock. It won't make the rifle shoot any better, and it will lower its value.

In their original form these rifles were so good they served the British Army in various marks from 1888 through the early 80's.

Your rifle may have seen service with the British Armed Forces in both the First and Second World Wars. It is a living bit of history.

Paul

Welcome to the site ... :thup:

Check the MKL...

Here's a similar old girl manufactured a year later with the full military wood on her ...

1917 ShtLE (Short Lee-Enfield) No.1 MkIII*

Regards,
Doug

Welcome. Actually you have a legitimate collectible rifle. The black painted stock tip and the sheet metal formed front sight ramp indicate that the conversion was done in England by the gunsmiths at Cogswell and Harrison. In the early 1960's, Enfields were thicker than fleas on an old dog. Ads of the day for Interarms and Ye Olde Hunter had these for sale. They thought if they looked more like a sporter, they could sell them. According to a Guns magazine article, Interarms bought the firm of Cogswell and Harrison and had them make the conversions as well as converting S&W .38 S&W revolvers to .38 special and .22 rimfire (they were marked "Converted by Cogswell & Harrison"). The rifles were unmarked--perhaps in protest to what was being done to the mighty Enfield. Certainly your rifle is not a candidate for "restoration"! Most people don't know about these--so there is a learning curve out there to wade through.

I have one of these also with the Addition of the sheet metal cover to make the fornt sight base look like a "sporter" ramp sight.
got ti for $75 at a show a year or so back but havent fired the thing yet. It appears that the sheet metal covering could be removed as teh sight blade was pushed out and the barrel is intact so it could be restored to military spec but I'd prefer to keep it as it is.

Yes welcome! I think I see 'ENGLAND' stamped over your serial number (below the 'Z') on the knoxform. This could further suggest a pre 1968 import to the States. Prior to 1968 only 'ENGLAND' was required on your rifle as per tariff law before export to the States. Then from 1968 to 1986 import of milsurps was banned to the States. Import resumed after 1986 , now requiring an 'import stamp' with importer's name like 'CAI' etc. Maybe somewhere you'll also find a civilian proof like 'BNP' with lots of '222's, tons' etc.?

Quote:

Originally Posted by drweiler

Maybe somewhere you'll also find a civilian proof like 'BNP' with lots of '222's, tons' etc.?

If a previous poster is correct that the conversion was done by Cogswells, then it WILL have English Proof. Lack of it suggests that is was cut down in the US.

BTW, even those rifles sold as converted by Cogswell & Harrison I suspect were done at Interarms in Manchester than the "real" Cogswells in London.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmsdyMachn

My original plans were to take this and my wife's 1937 Mosin-Nagant in for custom thumbhole stocks

OMG NOOOO!!!!

Ok it's your rifle, and you can do whatever you like with it - use it to dig the garden etc. At the moment, it looks like a professionally sporterized rifle. Start messing around with any more alterations (other than restoring the original configuration) and you will be spending money in order to devalue it. Pleeeease don't do that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by drweiler

Yes welcome! I think I see 'ENGLAND' stamped over your serial number (below the 'Z') on the knoxform. This could further suggest a pre 1968 import to the States. Prior to 1968 only 'ENGLAND' was required on your rifle as per tariff law before export to the States. Then from 1968 to 1986 import of milsurps was banned to the States. Import resumed after 1986 , now requiring an 'import stamp' with importer's name like 'CAI' etc. Maybe somewhere you'll also find a civilian proof like 'BNP' with lots of '222's, tons' etc.?

Correction, I meant the 'ENGLAND' was stamped over your serial number on the receiver ring below the 'Z', couldn't figure out how to edit post. Cheers, Don

You may find some difficulty in doing a thumb-hole stock, in that the stock retaining bolt goes in at a steep angle, and you need a hole bored under the buttplate to screw it home; if this hole is not to break out of the side of the new stock one would need to consider the geometry carefully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

OMG NOOOO!!!!

Ok it's your rifle, and you can do whatever you like with it - use it to dig the garden etc. At the moment, it looks like a professionally sporterized rifle. Start messing around with any more alterations (other than restoring the original configuration) and you will be spending money in order to devalue it. Pleeeease don't do that!

Worry not. From everything I've read here, I think I'll just be leaving this gun alone, unless I decide to put it back to original. Really didn't think I had anything special, but you guys have made me rethink that quite a bit. :)

Beerhunter, what did you mean about lack of English proof? (I know, damn noobs.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmsdyMachn

Beerhunter, what did you mean about lack of English proof? (I know, damn noobs.)

By law, all firearms offered for sale in the UK must have passed Proof at one of the two Proof Houses: The Gunmakers Company (London) or the Birmingham Proof House. In the case of the former, the rifle will marked with a Seax (a Saxon sword that looks like a scimitar) over the letters NP (Nitro Proof). In the case of the latter a crown over the letters BNP (Birmingham Nitro Proof).

I'll keep looking. Lots of places on this gun I need to look at closer now.

Okay, been digging like crazy, and isn't this (in the red circle) some sort of proof mark? My search continues....https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...05762png-1.jpg

Keep diggin', and look for stamps like Bearhunter described in Post #15. I've found them under wood, but only under the hand guard which you don't have.

Military proof mark (not valid for commercial sales)

!!! Just found this under the fore stock. I think this is the NP I was looking for! (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0...-countries.jpg)
(Sorry for the bad pic, not the best circumstances for pictures...)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0614-1.jpg

Here's some more detail for you ... :)

"BNP" ".303" "2.22" on barrel and under that is either "18.5 or 18+ or 184 TONS" .... means that your rifle was tested for safety by Birmingham Proof House showing caliber and chamber length. As required by British law, any firearm offered for commercial sale (regardless of military proofing) has to undergo a pressure test. Passed firearms were stamped, usually on the barrel and receiver.

"NP" was the Birmingham Nitro Proof between 1912 and 1954 and "BNP" is the Birmingham Nitro Proof after 1954

"England" is sometimes seen on Enfield rifles and it's the British private export mark pre-1968

Finally, here's a link that will help with official markings. :thup:

It's a site provided by Amatikulu with some good information to bookmark for the future.

Lee Enfield Rifle Markings (click here)

Regards,
Doug

Definitely will! Thanks, Doug. And sorry for spamming like I have been, I'm just way excited. Never had such a cool part of history, and I'm dying to learn all I can about it. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmsdyMachn

Definitely will! Thanks, Doug. And sorry for spamming like I have been, I'm just way excited. Never had such a cool part of history, and I'm dying to learn all I can about it. :)

No problem partner ... :)

I still remember my very first milsurp I bought and how excited I was with it .... ;)

I still own it ...

1895 Mauser - Lowe

It started a long and fun journey into a hobby that's been very enjoyable, plus for the most part, I've met a lot of great folks and fellow collectors who helped me out along the way ...

Regards,
Doug

warning once you get into thsi one - you'll want one in full military kit.