Printable View
Hi there,
Did a trade with someone and as I wasn't willing to trade that much value on a 1943 M1911A1, I ended up with the attached 1896 Krag rifle.
I have absolutely no experience on Krag rifles, therefore my main interest is if the parts are still original or if they had been changed. I suppose noone can answer what the values of these rifles is over here in Europe?
Your 1896 Krag has a M1898 stock installed.
Sure enough, and they ruined the 1898 stock in the process. One would think US Krags would be somewhat rare in Europe. If you could get a proper 1896 stock one would think its value would increase substantially. They do come up on ebay from time to time, but finding a seller willing to ship overseas would be a problem. It is a fairly early model 1896 rifle, probably made in 1896. In fact, it beats a previously claimed low for "model 1896" marked rifles by about 3000 and is in a range of serial #s where carbines were primarily being made.
M1903rifle, what are the differences between the 1896 and the 1898 stock?
Andiarisaka, thanks for the reply. Does that mean the rifle is pretty rare as you're saying it's a early model? With which S/N did they start producing M1896 rifles (or were the early ones converted to carbines)?
The biggest difference between the 1898 and 1896 stock is the scallop cut around the bolt handle, or more specifically around the trough the bolt handle passes through. The 1898 did not have this trough. 98 left, 92 right, but the 96 is the same as the 92, a little wider perhaps.
I think the earliest 96 rifles were the Cadet rifles made for West Point, they were done, in my opinion on 1895 dated receivers with their serial #s in the 24,000 range. And, they were different from regular model 96 rifles. Other than those it appears the earliest 96 rifle would have been around serial #36591, based on some that we know of now. We may not have that exactly, lots of missing numbers.
Ah, now I see, the first digit of your serial # may be an 8. Hard to read, 3s and 8s are sometimes hard to make out. If it's an 8, then it fits right in with the rifles.
Attachment 36667Attachment 36668
Andiarisaka, if you take a closer look the stock on my rifle still has the trough, though it has been cut out (picture #14 clearly shows this). Surfing on the internet it appears that my rear sight is not the original any more, is this correct?
How could it be that the earliest 1896 rifle would be around 36591 when I have S/N 34.162 in my hands? :)
Earliest we, being a group of collectors, know of, without researching a bunch of very old records at one of the Armories or the National Archives. See the metal that the bolt handle goes through on my 92. Your 96 has that too. The 1898 stock had to be cut on to allow that trough to fit in there. The trough was done away with on the model 98. There's no doubt at all that it's an 1898 stock, they weren't making 96 rifles circa 1901.
Yes, the sight was changed, and the handguard. That's not at all unusual as they upgraded over the years. A 96 rifle would have originally been fitted with a model 1896 sight (not adjustable for windage), a shorter front sight blade, and a handguard for the 1896 sight.
Your rear sight appears to be the 1898 rifle model, later modified to be more like the 1902. The hump of the ramp doesn't appear to be high enough to be a regular 1902 sight. The ramp of the 1898 sight was ground for a 2200fps load that damaged the locking lug on the rifles. The sights were withdrawn, some modified at the arsenal, some modified by later buyers.
Promo,
The early krags saw service in the Spanish-American War. Somewhere between a third and a half of them went to Cuba. It rained a lot and the troops used bacon grease to keep the rifles from rusting. Those rifles went back to the arsenal for reconditioning, at which time they upgraded them to the latest sights and wood.
The same thing happened to rifles and carbines that went to the Philippines and China. Those weapons, they mostly got the 1901 or 1902 sights.
Yours has the 1898 sight. Here is a picture of the various sights;
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation...g%20Sights.jpg
Anyway, you have what looks like a very good example of an early US Krag. You might try to get a "SRS check" on it to see if there are records of what unit it was issued to.
Also, I wonder how it ended up in Europe?
jn
Jon, I don't know where they came from. However, a Krag especially in this condition with nearly perfect cartouches is a very rare item in Europe. I cannot remember when I've seen one for the last time. I've also been offered a M1898 carbine, however this one didn't have any cartouches on the stock, therefore I left it where it was.
I've checked the SRS list, unfortunately there was no hit. And andiarisaka was right, I was also being misled by my picture. The S/N indeed starts with a 8 and not a 3.
At the beginning of WWI, Krags were used for training US troops. I know some got as far as England and France with their Krags still in hand. Beware of 1898 carbines. They are rare, hard to prove, and easy to fake. They were made in a specific serial # range and originally had the short 1896 carbine stock, though some made have been put into longer 1899 carbine stocks upon rebuild. Many cutdown rifles are passed off as carbines.
Promo,
The '98 carbines were in a couple bolcks in roughly 33K to 37K S/N. The Krag heavies on the "other" list can give you better numbers. No cartouche is not a sign of an inauthentic rifle. It is the sign of a replacement stock, most likely done at one of the arsenals. There were a lot of modifications made, particularly to carbines. The US Army finally quit pretending that cavalry were going to fire their carbines in mounted charges, so they dropped the "saddle ring" around 1898 or '99. A lot of older carbines got called in for "upgrades" which included a new, no-cartouche stock, new sight, and for some of them, sling swivels.
Rifles and carbines both got rusty in Cuba - it rained every day and all they had to prevent rust was bacon grease. So they went back to arsenal for refurbishing.
The 1898 sight was calibrated for the new, hotter 30-40 round the Army adopted after the Spanish American War. It was a pretty strong load and rifles started blowing up. So most of the '98 sights got taken off and replaced with the 1901 sight.
And so on.
There is this guy 5 Mad farmers, who has primary source material on all the modifications done to the Krag. He says he is going to publish. Look for his book, it will be a monster.
jn
Hi Jon! Promo sent me some pics of the carbine. It's a cut down 98 rifle, or a real carbine with rifle sights stuck in a cutdown rifle stock. It had been spot annealed on the right, where a Lyman 57K would go, so I'd guess it got to Europe post-war, somehow. The price on it was around $1400. I have some cutdowns I could export for that kinda money!
Hey, Andy! I keep running into the same people in all the low dives I haunt. Maybe I should join a garden club and forget about old guns.
I think it's kind of cool that a bubba job Krag would make it all the way to Europe, and be appreciated for its virtues instead of being belittled for what it is not. I hope Promo takes it to the range and shoots rings around everyone else with it. They could call it the 7.62 x 59R.
jn