Collecting on the cheap.

I'm new. i have yet to make my first collection purchase and will need to do so relatively inexpensively. What are your recent less then expensive firearm acquisitions? I'm just looking for ideas for when i have the resources to chase into my gun safe. I've got a filled out FFL type 03 license waiting for an upcoming move before i file it. Right now the money seems to go farthest in a Mosin Nagant, Which seems to be a great rifle.


I handled one at a local shop where they insisted what they had was a 600 item. after finding some for inside of 100 i looked a little sideways and kept moving.

Also, is there any way to get a heads up on upcoming milsurp availability? i'm not finding any clues on line, but i honestly dont know what i'm looking for yet.

Thanks! hope ya'll are having a good week.

You don't give a clue as to what time period you are interested in since the Mosian Nagant could be WW 1 or WW 2.
IF WW 2 then the cheapest/least expensive would be ruskie, Brit & German RCs in that order with costs being $200+/-, $300+/- and $400+/-.
IF you are getting an FFL to use to buy for your collection - Wrong move! Get a C&R lisc for that purpose.
Sarge

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Originally Posted by CRNeophyte

Also, is there any way to get a heads up on upcoming milsurp availability?

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No! Aside from Mosin Nagants there's no readily available supplies anymore. It pays to educate yourself before spending money. You just have to decide what interests you. If your interests are broad then expect to spend lots of time hunting up good reference material. If you focus on one specific area, then the job is easier. A good "hands on" education isn't as easy these days. But learning the ins and outs of "condition", including military, commercial, and home rebuilds is fairly important if you don't want to spend limited funds on items that may not be what they first appear to be.

To underline what jmoore wrote: if you start off just collecting without any experience or specific aim, and your prime criterion is "cheap", then in a very short time you are likely to discover that what you have is a cellar full of leftovers. Take it easy - the learning curve can otherwise turn out to be expensive.

I live in Germany, where unless you are a licensed collector (which means turning your cellar in to a strongroom, with alarm system, visits from inspectors etc) you are only allowed to purchase 2 longarms in 6 months. No doubt people in other countries would find this very annoying, but the restriction means that one is forced to consider each purchase carefully. If I rush out and buy a dud, or simply something that turns out to be disappointing, I cannot simply pass it on and buy something else. The 6-month rule is rigorous, and is not reduced if I sell something.

Although it is doubtless not easy to apply such a rule as self-discipline, I recommend that you try to do so. And remember that Mosins, Enfields, Mausers, yes even Springfields, were made by the millions, so there is no need to rush to buy the first one you see. There will be others, later, when you can make a better judgement.

And get in touch with others who have rifles of the type you would like to collect. Look for a gun club where others shoot old service rifles. The most intensive study of books and photos cannot replace the learning effect of actually handling old artefacts. The more you can handle, examine (and fire!), the more you will develop a feeling for what is good, what is OK, what is iffy, and what is downright fake.

You will come across all of these in time, but as a beginner will find it hard to tell the difference. Go slowly, and good luck!

You have one advantage - rifles on the east coast can be a little easier to find an slightly less expensive than the west coast. I agree with all the posts above - if you want to be collector do your research. There may be books at your library to get started - there is alot of information on this site. I chose to buy books on each type I own but that can get expensive in itself. The history of the firearm makes collecting worth it for me. If all you want is cheap military surplus you're limited to buying a random mosin online for about $100. There are Hungarian/Austrian straight pulls available for less than $200 online also as well as Yugo Mausers for about $250. I would check all the gun stores and pawn shops in your area to get a feel for what's out there and the condition of these old rifles. Between the cost of the rifle and ammo I have not found it to be a 'cheap' hobby. Good luck.

Attention to detail is invaluable. Even as a beginner, you can find good gear reasonably cheap locally IF you accept the fact that 95% of what you see will have dramas, minor or major. What makes it more difficult now is that the mass quantities of milsurps all piled up together in one spot for sale just aren't about. My first Enfield AND first Milsurp AND first rifle that I bought was selected from a row of about 30 in an Army/Navy store in the '70s. But I had read a fair amount beforehand. (Granted it was mostly WHB Smith and other books from the '40s)

Still have that WWI Enfield, and it's still one of my better ones, but I now know it was a 1937 rebuild.

A photo from a range trip this year:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff013-1.jpg

Sarge! thanks for taking the time to respond,
I do not have a time period in mind for collection. I honestly think i'm just generally interested in weapons that i've read about in class, and seen in movies based in historical conflicts. I like the Mosin due to what i've been able to glean about the weapon in a day or two of research. Cost is a factor as hobbies are for the time being going to have to be casual interests i in no way meant to insult the mosin by referring it to the weapon as being a cheap POS in that sense of the word. In response to your FFL Comment, FFL type 03 is the Curio and Relic's fire arm license. After doing some reading on the license and finding websites that have C&R eligible categories i'm finding an interest in the weapons i've seen so far.

Really my goal right now is exposure to different points of view and i want to take the time to thank you for yours.

---------- Post added at 10:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 PM ----------

Well, my initial goals and interests are focused on three rifles, the enfield, the Garand and the Mosin Nagant. I've seen the CWP listings for the garands and i'm likely going to go for rack grade. I like the idea of keeping my first raggedy rifle forever. Enfield will likely be the last i pick up unless i suddenly find where all the free ones are. and the mosin is just so highly praised i cant help but be interested. The cost factor on the mosin is really what i anticipate to be a gateway to an addiction. I however am very excited.

I am cautious not to be ripped off, i do not know any collectors so i dont have much chance to get someone i trust involved with the purchasing process to ensure i dont get a cap gun by mistake. I tend to circle the pool for a very long time before jumping in, but once i'm in i know how to swim. :) Thanks Jmoore for taking the time to respond.

---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

Patrick, Thanks for your very valuable advice and perspective.
I have a very tight budget for this interest.. and i think two long guns per six months would be an overestimate of what i'll have available. There are a variety of associations in my area, most of which are paid memberships. I have a bit of awkward schoolboy left in me when i go to the range i get overly excited and i think i make folks uncomfortable. you dont want discomfort at the range when you're asking for a tour of their arsenal. I'll try to get more range time in before making a purchasing decision.

Thanks patrick.

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RL, when your referring to Hungarian/Austrian pulls, what are you talking about? is this a variant of the Mosin Nagant or is it another model of rifle entirely? I likely will go for the 100 priced mosin before moving on to the garand and others. I do alot of my reading on my computer with PDF books. many of which are available on sites which publish works in the public domain for little or no cost.

Man i cant wait to go digging through pawn shops. i dont quite have the cash yet to buy, but i think i'll love getting acquainted with my purchase before i actually get one home.

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JM! Dang thats a beautiful weapon. i like the grain and the character on the stock. I see alot of the people selling nagant's are also selling upcharged versions with laminated stocks. the wear and the abuse the rifle undertook during service gives it character which should not be ignored or so carelessly replaced. This the "Mad Minute" rifle right?

I've seen some of the Schmidt-Rubin models go for sub $350, so if you're interested in a very accurate and unique rifle you could go that route too.

Also, while nothing to swear by, you should pick up a copy of Standard Catalog of Military Firearms by Philip Peterson. It's not perfect and doesn't have quite as extensive information as more specialized books, but it's good as a baseline for an approximate idea of what you should be spending on particular firearms.

Clash,
What exactly is a Schmidt-Rubin ? a quick google search got me a very interesting uh.. Ring action rifle which i've never seen before. are these mosin variants? they seem to have alot of similarities.

Thanks for the recommendation on the book, i'll look into finding a copy somewhere.

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man that book depressed me a little bit. Page 13 is all about how scarce and improbable it is to find a weapon in good condition anymore. eh... nothing like a little bit of deterrent and obstacle to make you want it more :D

No they're not Mosin variants. The Schmidt-Rubin is a Swiss straight-pull bolt action rifle. They're known for their excellent quality and are typically very accurate and reliable.

If you're absolutely set on a Mosin Nagant, I'd save up a little extra and look for a Finnish Mosin or an early Hex receiver Russian Mosin. The $90 arsenal refurb ones are not really worth it in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by CRNeophyte

This the "Mad Minute" rifle right?

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Wrong. The Mad Minute is a peculiarly British invention, and some Bisley meetings include a Mad Minute competition. It was devised for Enfield rifles, as they have a pretty high firing rate with the 10-round magazine. Look it up on the Internet and you should be able to find video clips. The real aces in this discipline can fire off an astonishing number of shots while I would still be fumbling with the charger clips. But to count, the shots must hit the target, not just be fired off wildly. So it's a bit like a very high speed silhouette match, if there were such a thing.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Wrong. The Mad Minute is a peculiarly British invention

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In actual fact, I believe he was referring to the photo of my first milsurp pictured above his post which just happens to be an SMLE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CRNeophyte

Well, my initial goals and interests are focused on three rifles, the enfield, the Garand and the Mosin Nagant

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CRNeophyte,

If I was on your side of the pond, it would be the Garand and a M1 Carbine, but going back to what Sarge says have you an Idea on the time frame, you would like to collect from, also any specific interest in what country etc, the other thing is it to collect and shoot, or a cheap Milsurp to shoot ?
Like Patrick says, you can end up with a celler full of leftovers and when you count the cost you will curse yourself, as you could of saved and got something that will give you years of pleasure and something that you could move on with no loss.

I,m an Enfield man myself (but have a soft spot for the M1903) I find the best quality rifles are pre war or post war, regarding Enfields the best SMLE for quality and finish was the Commercial ones made around the 1920,s (just my opinion).

You mention the Nagant, I,m looking for one myself but a sniper version, there was a time when the place was flooded with them but they seem to have dried up and a lot now are garage builds, built with a scope off ebay etc.

I have a few nice rifles but most of mine have been saved from death row and restored I,ve also converted some to different calibres etc, so the collecting bit isnt there but they are excellent shooters that dont carry the "original" tag and most of them done on a shoestring budget.

One thing is for certain, whatever Milsurp you decide upon, then your on the best forum for any advice or help.

Clash,
Thanks for your input. i admit to being hung up on the mosin due to its affordability. what would you think a Finnish would go for? i saw a hex receiver on AIM surplus for around 120, is that in line with your perceptions?

turns out aim was sold out at 110, JGSales however had them for 150,

Mosin-Nagant 91/30 Hex Receiver rifle, Russian, 7.62x54R caliber. Used.

THanks for your time Clash :D

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 PM ----------

Right, I was referring the to enfield though rather unclearly. I saw a top shot episode while i was drifitng off to sleep while they were doing a mad minute challenge. Looks fun!

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

JMoore, you are correct sir : D

---------- Post added at 09:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

BigDuke6,
Thank you for your input. i am between both collecting for pride in ownership as well as enjoyment of shooting them at the range. I would like to have original set guns when i am in a place financially to support that kind of habit. Today however i would like a cheap shooter in a caliber that isnt .22. My step son and i enjoy action movies, usually based in WWII or Vietnam. and he prides himself in social studies with his weapon knowledge.

I consider the big three to be Mosin Nagant, Enfield and a Garand. all of them are awesome battle implements and deserve respect. The lowest grade Garand i can find online is around 600, which will not be possible at this time. I have not shopped for an Enfield and i have shopped a little for the Mosin (three or four online websites, no pawn shops or gun stores. Sadly they'll be closed tomorrow morning.)

Is it complicated to convert these service rifles to other calibres? i'd be interested in being able to modify an enjoyable shooter between 7.62x54r and 7.62x51/.308 winchester. depending on which was cheaper that day.

CRNeophyte,

Your on the right track, because this is the best of the forums to be on. The guys here are very knowledgeable and are very willing to share. I know because they have helped me out a lot. Just ask. One thing you mite do is to Google CMP and you will come up with the Civilian Marksmanship Program. The M1 Garand can be bought from them starting at $ 525.00 and up + $ 24.95 shipped right to your door. This is a field grade and they go up from there. I know this may be more than you want to spend but you will get a Rifle with all USGI parts and has been checked out. Best if you are close enought to go to one of their stores and just ask the guys to help you. I went with the HRA Service Grade for $ 625.00 plus shipping and WOW in 26 days I had a very very nice M1 Garand at my door. It was hard for me to come up with that much money. I know were you are coming from about the money. Check it out, get on that forum also and learn. I spend all night trying to learn all I can, so if I see a rifle some place I will know a little about what questions to ask so I don't get ripped off.
The best of luck to you.
Dick

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Originally Posted by CRNeophyte

Is it complicated to convert these service rifles to other calibres?

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That would be more-or-less feasible, depending on the type, and was often done in the past, mainly because of the difficulty of obtaining the right ammo. These days, there is so much reloading gear available and ammo from suppliers such as PRVI and specialist suppliers, that the "hard-to-get ammo" argument is outdated. Conversions are still common in countries such as France, where there are restrictions on having rifles in military calibers.

But it costs money and makes the gun worthless as a collector's item. Forget it.

Here is what you want to do Neo. Get that Mosin hex. Make sure it is a numbers matching one. Shoot it. If you like it and can stand the recoil then keep collecting. If not maybe Milsurp collecting is not for you.
I personally loved the recoil from my first Milsurp rifles. That is how I have almost every Rilfe used in WWII. The major types anyway.

So if you like that one then here is what I recommend you do.

Get yourself a good bore light. This is a small flashlight with an optical device on the end to allow you to see down the bore of a firearm. The only way to figure out a good bore is to look at a lot of them to learn what sharp lands and grooves are.
This is the best way to start collecting milsurps. If you do this you will thank me for it in the future.

Next, what to buy you are asking?
You say you want to start with lower cost rifles. So you want to get your Hex Mosin, then I say find a nice Mosin M38. These are going up in price so get one now. Then a good M44 Mosin. Then a M38 Finnish Mosin. These are extremely fine rifles if you ask me and you should own one.
After that you should have learned what to look for in condition. You will have to do like I do. Hit some pawn shops, gun shops, gun shows, flea markets. Find out as much as you can before hand by purchasing some books about milsurp rifles.
You will eventually want a nice example of the Enfields, Mausers, Arisakas, Carcanos and most importantly the American Garands (the rifle that won WWII) the M1 Carbines, the Springfields.
Believe me my friend I was in your position once and I know how hard it is to get started in the right direction. If you have any other questions feel free to ask me.

Capt Mil COll,
Thanks for your honest assessment, I am willing to accept that this may not be for me, but it is most definitely attractive. I have plans to purchase a firearm guide from amazon,

2012 Standard Catalog of Firearms: The Collector Reference Guide: Jerry Lee: 9781440216886: Amazon.com: Books

I own a savage 64 .22lr caliber plinker, total joy to shoot, and it unfortunately colors my perception of what it should cost to go shooting at 4-5 cents a round.


im going to look up some how too videos on youtube about checking bore condition. thanks for the nudge in the right direction.


Do you have a favorite model of bore light? i have considered some of the DIY scope cameras i've seen at the hardware store, but that does seem to be a little overkill and im not sure they'd fit in the bores in the first place!

I will have to research a few of the weapons you've listed. I get a little shy at the pawnshops and in person venues because i know i am at least six or seven weeks away from making a purchase. Is this a breech of etiquette?

Update :
I went out to wally and got the 6 dollar winchester model bore light. once the little one's curiosity is asleep for the night i'll pull out the plinker and see if i can determine the rifling with it and try to practice using the tool. Thanks for all the advice.

You also have to remember if your going to shoot these wonderful rifles, handguns and probably shotguns you will need a heck of a lot of different ammo to do it. Just something else to think about.

JIGGA WHOA!! which one is your favorite?

All of them.

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Originally Posted by Capt Mil Coll

All of them.

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alright, i can accept that. which were your first three?

These are probably my favorites.

Is that a Pattern 14 or a Model 1917 before the 03?

It's an M1917 - the finger grooves are longer and further forward than on a P14.

You are correct Sir.

Check and see if you have a Dunhams near you. There are some other similar stores out there that are still selling the Nagants for under $100. If you get lucky, they will get a hex receiver in for the same price. I paid $89 for a hex at Dunhams earlier this year. Prices are going up, they aren't running the sales they had been but I think they are still selling at $99 each. The 91/30's are probably at present the best bang for the buck. Ammo is still available in large quantities and is cheap. It's corrosive but with proper cleaning that isn't an issue. As for references, I wouldn't recommend the 2012 Standard Catalog of Firearms for Milsurps. These big catalogs usually don't cover them in depth if at all and with the large number of variations, it's just not going to give you accurate values. I carry around a copy of Peterson's military firearms and it is a much better book for a beginning collector. It also covers the bayonets. It doesn't get into the variations completely but does tell you a few things to look for. It does break things down into MAJOR variations, like types, year changes, etc. Just not the very fine differences like different manufacturers, etc, except with the Garands and M1's they are broken down by year of manufacture and company of manufacture. I've made a point of collecting on the cheap. I hit a lot of different type of venues from auctions to shows, go gun shops to box stores to the huge mega stores like Cabela's. I have a Cabela's credit card and in using it I get points, similar to airline miles, which I can use to purchase rifles. While the milsurps seem to have almost dried up there, I snagged an M48 in like new condition free on points and a Romanian AK-47 just last Sunday for $12.51 (the rest was points). I picked up both of these in the last three months I believe. I also don't go for top of the line firearms unless the price is right. I usually go for good working rifles that have been beat up or are dirty, missing a few minor parts, etc. I put some elbow grease into them to make them presentable and have a lot of fun doing that. I don't shoot them much because I was raised in a family that typically shot no more than three shots to sight them in and the rest were being aimed at a deer. A box of 20 shells would typically last us 4 or 5 years. (I'm not kidding) Old habit I'm trying to break but I still usually only shoot a five shot group anytime I go to the range. Exceptions being the AR's and now AK's whose ammo is still relatively inexpensive.

I bought my first milsurp over 20 years ago and second shortly after that but then we had kids and I took about a 20 year break from it. Since have kind of gone on a rampage the past 3 years and you can see most of my purchases on one or the other of the various threads. I concentrate on WWI and WWII rifles but have a couple later and earlier examples that I just couldn't pass up.

CRN,
I think you got some real good advice from these fellas.
I collected what I could afford, and don't regret it. And I am a sucker for rescue cases.
I picked up a few Mosins when they were cheap.... and have watched the prices go up on GOOD variations. When it comes to the Mosins, I am trying to pick up 1 of each "variety"... including the M38's and M44's.

Before you leapt into Nazi Mausers and M1 Garands/ Carbines, know the guns. Worn examples of an M1 can be had, which are costly to restore.... regardless of selling price to you. If you are looking for your first M1 Garand purchase, I would recommend the CMP. There you know you have a legit rifle that wasn't "bubba'd" or welded back together. As a side story, I had a friend lay down some good money for Commercial copy of a Garand, and didn't know it. Some basic research would have helped him.

Same thing with K98's. Millions were made, and stamped codes make the difference on value.

The interesting thought on the Garands and K98's, is that many people feel they are OVER collected... but that also helps with being able to access good documentation on what is correct, vs. price escalation. The Priority I place on guns:
1. Variety
2. rarity
3. Condition
4. Shooting

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CRNeophyte

I'm new. i have yet to make my first collection purchase and will need to do so relatively inexpensively. What are your recent less then expensive firearm acquisitions? I'm just looking for ideas for when i have the resources to chase into my gun safe. I've got a filled out FFL type 03 license waiting for an upcoming move before i file it. Right now the money seems to go farthest in a Mosin Nagant, Which seems to be a great rifle.


I handled one at a local shop where they insisted what they had was a 600 item. after finding some for inside of 100 i looked a little sideways and kept moving.

Also, is there any way to get a heads up on upcoming milsurp availability? i'm not finding any clues on line, but i honestly dont know what i'm looking for yet.

Thanks! hope ya'll are having a good week.

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This may bring scoffs and laughter but I would, for good value and possible future gains in value, look at what are very inexpensive rifles (Carcanos in two calibers), Norwegian Krags and Swedish Mausers for superb quality and smooth actions, and the Lee Enfields. Older and often higher quality rifles like some already mentioned can also be found at unbelievably low prices for such high quality. All can be found in original condition for under $200 if you do a lot of searching and parts guns and bubba'd sporters often sell for pocket change to provide a source of replacement parts. Search for and join popular milsurp and collector forums to get info and best of all advice from seasoned collectors. The Mosin Nagants are readily available even in new, unfired condition and they may become more pricey with time....there are just so many, like the SKSs, available. Start with something you like and enjoy and can afford and gradually expand your interests and take some risks (knowledge paid for is invaluable), and you will soon get hooked on your favorites. Good luck!