Restoring beater M1s

Gents,
Want to throw a pitch to James River Armory. I had a pair of rack grade mix -master born in 1943 Winchesters done up for my Grandsons to start shooting. I sent James River the metal only, some odds and ends of Winchester parts correct for the receiver.
The result was absolutely great, new black walnut stocks, car-touched to match the receiver, correct WWII gray finish, (these had the nearly purple Greek bluing) correctly timed and headspaced. I was a little leery but I gave them a shot, my boys could not be happier. So if you have a beater you want to make a shooter I recommend James River. If you send some collectable rare item he will call you/tell you the rifle should not be touched- great guy. They come back in a hard case, and ready for the range. Grandson #1 was grouping at 100yds right out of the case. Price depends on what you want I got the basics and am very satisfied.

NICE!!! any pics. JRA seems like a good company to deal with. i have delt with tim shuflin and he is IMO the best hands down

I will try and upload some- I had a problem loading pics. I will tell you both turned out really nice and look and shoot great.

Here is the forum link to the James River Garands enjoy REMO
Remo’s Military Surplus Collectors Forums Photo Gallery

"new black walnut stocks, cartouched to match the receiver" What's that all about?

I'd say it's just about what you think Bob...here we go again!

Gents,
Hold your jets-these are not made to fool collectors or to sell to purist M1 Garand fans. The stocks are done to replicate what time period the rifles are from, be safe and to look good and they have the James River stamp also clearly burned onto the stocks so there is no doubt they are refurbs and not intended to pass as real. Any Garand man or woman can take a 20 second look and tell they are repro. I had these two rifles with bad stocks, one with a bad barrel that my grandsons wanted to start shooting, they are and never will be museum pieces, they were mixmasters they are to use, a lot, they are to build memories. I looked at Boyds, CMP, and this forum for stocks, and several gunsmiths, for the money I think James River was the best bet. The guns were restored to a safe, shootable status that will allow participation in John C. Garand matches. I was trying to pass that info along to any forum member in the same boat. I love the purist that wants to snidely critique without the story. I am trying to keep a sport alive and pass down to the next generation and you two seem to be worrying about somebody selling repros as the real deal, crooks will fake anything as we all know and have seen. I think you know as we die off a lot of what we know will go with us and it is critical to pass on the history, the reason we love these old rifles, and to keep alive the people who died using them to preserve our way of life and try to preserve that history as best we can through our family and friends . I thought that was what this forum was all about. I thought we were better than that - you tell me.
Remo

It is good to hear that James River does stamp there stocks in a way that the cartouches are identified as fakes. Most stocks that have fake cartouches are not so marked. It is not only the "purist", but also most average collectors that have a problem with this. Reason being, it is not just fake cartouches but also the many other M1 rifle parts that are now being faked, and the main reason is to deceive. It is starting to really effect the collecting hobby in that many are afraid to purchase a "collectable" rifle, stock or parts without first having a true expert pass judgement and this is not always possible. Most find out they bought a rifle with fake stock or parts when it is to late. I am in need of a nice SA/GHS stock. Years ago I would have felt fairly safe buying the stock as, even though some fakes may have been around, not many were and the cost was no where like it is today. Today a nice SA/GHS stock would cost about $ 600.00 or more and a large number of them would turn out to be fake. Some I would be able to identify as a fake but many I could not. It just takes alot out of the hobby and makes it alot less enjoyable.

"the main reason is to deceive"

That's the total concern, as Joe says, not any purist elitism. MANY new collectors get turned off the hobby when they are rooked out of hundreds of dollars by a faker. I'm happy to hear that your outfit brands their stocks, that's a good thing. Even repros that are so advertised become "original" after a couple of ownership changes. I think we all owe it to the fraternity to try to protect the new guys just getting into Garands, they are the future.

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Originally Posted by Joe W

It is good to hear that James River does stamp there stocks in a way that the cartouches are identified as fakes. Most stocks that have fake cartouches are not so marked. It is not only the "purist", but also most average collectors that have a problem with this. Reason being, it is not just fake cartouches but also the many other M1 rifle parts that are now being faked, and the main reason is to deceive. It is starting to really effect the collecting hobby in that many are afraid to purchase a "collectable" rifle, stock or parts without first having a true expert pass judgement and this is not always possible. Most find out they bought a rifle with fake stock or parts when it is to late. I am in need of a nice SA/GHS stock. Years ago I would have felt fairly safe buying the stock as, even though some fakes may have been around, not many were and the cost was no where like it is today. Today a nice SA/GHS stock would cost about $ 600.00 or more and a large number of them would turn out to be fake. Some I would be able to identify as a fake but many I could not. It just takes alot out of the hobby and makes it alot less enjoyable.

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joe, and you also bob i agree .
as i e-mailed you bob about a early winchester m1 stock ,is a jungle out there .---charles

You know thats one of the main reasons I bought a new stock. I was too afraid to buy any old thing and the price for a "real" stock was too much of an investment to feel confortable with. what if its a just another repo.

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Originally Posted by Remo

I thought we were better than that - you tell me.

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Fakes are fakes. Whatever the reason it was done. Like Bob says, with the next sale it becomes original.

So what would happen to the forgers say if you had a set of original stamps.

Offered to stamp for free with a brand burnt into the back end of the stock.

Not going to happen but I think it would discourage the forgers

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Originally Posted by Mark in Rochester

So what would happen to the forgers say if you had a set of original stamps.

Offered to stamp for free with a brand burnt into the back end of the stock.

Not going to happen but I think it would discourage the forgers

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Mark, I think the problem would still exist. Some of the fake stamps are very good and it takes a real expert to identify them. There would still be those that "wish to deceive" and they would not want a stock that was marked as a fake. They would still go to the forgers. As Bob said, the bigest problem is going to be down the road, after the stock is out of the hands of the person that had it stamped in the first place. Even if the past owner is honest and had good intentions, at some point a future owner is either going to conveniently forget he knew the stock had a fake stamp, or may in fact not know, and he himself was duped. Either way, the stock gets passed off as being original. No good is going to come out of this. The problem is ours, the collecting fraternity.
There is now another group of people, other than "collectors", buying the M1 rifle that do not see things quite the way we do. These are people that just want to own, maybe only one M1 rifle, as a a representive piece of WW2 or Korean War memorabilia. They may only be interested in having the rifle "appear" as it did when first isued. They may not care one bit as to "originality" and surely will not spend the money for a stock with the original cartouche and will be just as happy or more so, with the fake cartouche. This of course adds to "our problem", but means nothing to them. I don't really see an answer other than to make yourself as knowledgeable as you can or ask for help BEFORE making a purchase. There are many knowledgable people in the GCA willing to help.

I really don't the problem with the James River Armoury stocks. They are repro stocks and they are marked as such. If you buy one as an original shame on you for not looking or knowing the difference. They look like new stocks and they serve a purpose with re-enactors and people who don't want to damage an increasingly valuable original stock.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

I really don't the problem with the James River Armoury stocks. They are repro stocks and they are marked as such. If you buy one as an original shame on you for not looking or knowing the difference. They look like new stocks and they serve a purpose with re-enactors and people who don't want to damage an increasingly valuable original stock.

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I think most would agree with you and have indicated that in previous posts to this thread.

"It is good to hear that James River does stamp there stocks in a way that the cartouches are identified as fakes. Most stocks that have fake cartouches are not so marked." ( Joe W )

"I'm happy to hear that your outfit brands their stocks, that's a good thing." (Bob Seijas)"

My last post on the topic, we will have to agree to disagree - I have one goal- teach young men how to shoot MILSURP Rifles safely, correctly, and not worry how many rounds they put through them, and inform members here is a good, honest gunsmith that does great work. I know some of you are looking at it strictly from a collector view- money making view and thinking fraud - but I'm not here selling anything. I think both types can exist together in this forum. There are unscrupulous people at every gun show I attend selling put together rifles of all types as "untouched" all "original" "War Bring home by Grandpa" with a Criterion barrel on it, so I understand your angst. Unfortunately where there is money to be had, there will be fraud and "Deceit" neither you or I will ever to be able to fully stop but we can advise and learn on this forum. That's why I support this forum. Thanks for your viewpoint
. Remo

What turns me off about the whole restamp issue is the fact that real legit stocks, with real and legit cartouches, are actually being under minded and their legitimacy compromised because of this issue. The value of a bonafide stock cartouche is now questioned. The guy on the internet advertising his restamp service**sis a prime example of this.


Mike

I think the bad thing is refinishing restamping original stocks. If you want it to look new get repro.I don't think repro stocks fool anyone. but a refinish original might take an expert to tell ?

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Originally Posted by TMB

I think the bad thing is refinishing restamping original stocks. If you want it to look new get repro.I don't think repro stocks fool anyone. but a refinish original might take an expert to tell ?

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I guess there are two schools of thought regarding "original" stocks. Some will look at it as embelishing or restoring the "original" stock. We already seem to accept restoring rifles such as gas traps with repro parts. Reason being is that original gas trap parts are either impossible to find or to costly. Not to far in the future the same will be said of some WW2 era stocks, especially GHS. Also when restoring any M1 Garand most tend to make it as close to original looking as possible. We look for not only correct parts but matching wear patterns. The finished product could also be considered as a "fake". Someplace down the road some unsuspecting buyer might think he is buying a "original" rifle as opposed to a "correct" rifle. There are restored rifles that also will fool all but an expert. I don't know what the answer to this problem really is and I tend to think there may not be an answer.