Mk.VII projectiles

Hopefully someone here can help. I need a design drawing of the Mk.VII projectile. I've got an engineer at Sierra Bullets who's going to present it and an original projectile in an upcoming new product meeting with the bosses. I've explained the typical problems with boat tail projectiles in well used LE rifles and that there's really no source for correct 174 FMJ flat base bullets for making military duplication loads. If there's a drawing out there, please scan it and send it to my email address at bdlltd@bellsouth.net. If he's successful in making it happen, I'll get involved in exporting them too since demand will be high, especially in England and the Commonwealth. Thanks.

Brian

Don't know where this one came from......Attachment 36971

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I've explained the typical problems with boat tail projectiles in well used LE rifles and that there's really no source for correct 174 FMJ flat base bullets for making military duplication loads.

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Please tell your friend that users of old Argentine/Peruvian Mausers and Mosin-Nagants have the same problem and need the same solution. There really is a market for such a bullet - and it's not limited to Lee-Enfields.

If anyone in the world has them TonyE will.
I'll send him a private email and see what happens or hopefully he will see this posting.

These days it can hardly be rocket surgery to weigh, balance and dissect a dozen or so Mk7 projectiles to obtain the data.

Establishing the Length, Diameter, Mass, Ogive, and point of balance are a good start.

The low-mass nose filler is an issue, however, if someone is building a hollow-point "equivalent", a simple air pocket with a suitably adjustment to the pure lead core should mostly do the trick.

HOWEVER, I believe that pert of the key is in the fact that the Mk7 bullet is an OPEN based FMJ. Unless the bullet is capable of some base-driven expansion to fill the .0.318"allowable GROOVE diameter of the barrels out there, they will be less than ideal.

Do any fellow posters have ANY data on diameter measurements of fired Mk7 bullets? They may well start out at 0.311", but do they "bump up" on firing / engaging the rifling?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

HOWEVER, I believe that pert of the key is in the fact that the Mk7 bullet is an OPEN based FMJ. Unless the bullet is capable of some base-driven expansion to fill the .0.318"allowable GROOVE diameter of the barrels out there, they will be less than ideal.

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I can only speak as I find on this. I got hold of some flat base/flat nose Complete Metal Jacket bullets, that is to say without an open base and they worked brilliantly. The groups of all of my LEs closed up.

I've pulled Canadian and British Mk.VII projectiles to supply for their scrutiny. He said the drawings weren't really necessary but it would be nice to send one. I have a set of books here on .303 ammo but I'll be damned if I can find them!

Probably of no help at all but Kynamco obviously found some in the last year or two (sorry for the blury phone camera :

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00283-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00304-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00261-1.jpg

Just to chip in with a Thank you to Brian for this. If we could persuade a company to manufacture these it would be excellent for all concerned. great market, profits, original projectiles for reloaders...win win win.

"users of old Argentine/Peruvian Mausers and Mosin-Nagants have the same problem"

And Type 99 Arisakas and early Belgian Mausers!

I'm a bit like Brian, got the info, just never remember where.
Murphies alive and well in my house, Brian..check B.A Temples books on 303 ammunition, I will check mine, at least I know where they are.
On bump up measurements, yeah...had a notebook full of various measurements, can't find it, I will trip over it when this thread has faded into obscurity....that's Murphy for ya.

A plastic tip inserted before the lead in place of the original would work. Just a bead that would conform to the shape as the lead is pressured in would also work.

Thanks to all. It's a set of B.A. Temple's books I've misplaced. I used to sell them. I found one spare ID manual for blank ammo left here.

I measured both the Dominion and Radway Green projectiles and they're right at .310 -.310.5 in diameter. I'm sure Sierra would make them a true .311 diameter. I've measured several of the 180 Pro Hunter and 174 Matchking projectiles and they are .311.

I have a number of drawings for the Mark VII bullet so will scan the best later today and mail to you.

I even have an original 1910 Royal Laboratory coloured print of the bullet but it is very large. I will see what I can do.

BTW, the picture posted above is from the British Pamphlet 11 on Small Arms Ammunition.

Regards
TonyE

God................., Brian if only you'd asked all this a month or so ago. We had pages and pages of technical detail, drawings lead composition data.......... In fact EVERYTHING you'd ever need to set up a projectile factory. But it's all unavailable for the next XX months.

All of a sudden, these questions and wants come tumbling down, like the No8 boltheads. Had loads of them but............... It's sooooooo frustrating

Here is a decent drawing of the Ball Mark VII bullet. I will dig out the internal details and post shortly.

I have also e-mailed it as requested.

Regards
TonyE

Well you've done it now Brian, here I am time wasting cutting bullets lengthwise just to see what it's all about.

Attachment 37005Attachment 37006

It's not hard to see where the aluminium finishes, note the small hollow in the tip of the Indian pill on the left.
Both the Indian and Australian pills were 174+/- 1/10 gr.

Here are a couple more drawings that may help. The larger one is from the original 1910 RL 17069 drawing.

Regards
TonyE

TonyE, Can you just scan me the single projectile design drawing? It's perfect and all I need. Brian

It's a bit like hunting UFOs: they're out there, somewhere! (Maybe).

It is interesting that the filler is so closely pre-formed. Bullet jackets, whether ball or "sporting" type, BOTH start out as essentially cylindrical with a radiused closed end. ( a LOT like cartridge cases, in fact.).

They then get run through a series of dies to achieve final form.

Conjecture: If the "filler" material is malleable enough, then a simple cylindrical pellet of the stuff inserted in the blank jacket before the core SHOULD conform to the profile as the outer jacket it is formed. The point pressures available on even small hydraulic presses are quite large. You can buy hand-cranked caneluring machines or you can simply rely on a Lee "Factory Crimp" Collet tool to do the trick after seating.

I have watched a mate of mine crafting his own bullets on his Corbin gear; pretty nifty, but he only makes hollow-points for a specific task. I have swapped emails with Mr. Corbin himself and the deal is that whatever you want to make, they have the technology if you have the funds.

The beauty of the Corbin thing is that if you want a .3125" diameter bullet with a funny core and a stepped ogive, they will set the tools up for the job. Up-front numbers are a bit daunting at first. However, used correctly, a set of tools and machines will produce many tens of thousands of projectiles without appreciable wear. And it's something useful to do when you are snow-bound in your cabin.

And no, I am not on a commission from Corbin.

The 1929 Textbook of Smallarms contains an article on the tooling for making the bullet.

Pipe dream. I wish you luck. I wasn't even able to get the ballistic coefficient of the Mk VII bulllet on this site where there are many .303 British cartridge experts. So, as far as reproducing the trajectory of the Mk VII cartridge ... Again, good luck !

G'Day,
Here's some I cut up. The English one has a timber insert (disinfected for safety) and the Aussie's aluminium and die cast.

Thanks,
Rastis

In my youth, I pumped a lot of .303 bullets into the stop butt at the Warwick Road range just near RAAF Amberley.

Being inquisitive by nature, I recovered a few for inspection. The Indian stuff marked "KF" etc seemed to have something like plaster of Paris in the pointy end; very odd. It also did not group as well as the pre-WW2 vinatge Footscray stuff we tried to reserve for zeroing and for actual competition.

The projectiles and drawings are in the hands of a ballistics technician at Sierra Bullets who will present the project to the folks in sales and marketing. Keep your fingers and toes crossed Gents. I did mention that it could be quite a niche market to offer up modern duplicates of several sought after military projectiles. No one has ever done it before. Hopefully, they think there's enough sales to be had from the effort of adding new products to the current line.

I'm still waiting for someone to do an 'S' bullet for the 8x57. Many worn Mausers don't shoot the sS one well, with it's limited bearing surface.

If we have success, we'll hit 'em with that one next!