vetterli vitali model 1870/87/15 rehab

hi everyone. i have a vetterli vitali model 1870/87/15 that i picked up at a gun show here in mississippi last week and i`m glad i did. It was made by the Torino arsenal in 1889 and redone for the 6.5X52 mm Carcano ammo in 1915. It has a cleaning rod with it but i think the grooves in the wood must be stripped since after a quarter turn of the rod it reloosenes and i have to start over. I can get it to where it is tight but it still sticks out past the barrel (i`m picky about my old rifles looking good since i am a collector of ww1 and ww2 bolt action rifles). I was lucky the dealer i bought it from also had a shortened bayonet for it and threw it in with the gun. I bought the entire package for 150 bucks and it does fire. I`m scared about shooting the rounds i have for it even though they`re 139 grains i still want them a little less powerful in case something bad happens. All of the numbers on it match but the cartouches seem to have faded away with time unfourtunately. These aren`t that common to come by down here and i thought it would be a cool looking gun to have in my collection.

i`m not sure if this was a great buy or not so anyone`s input on the subject would be great. Also i do plan on someday firing it and if anyone has any advice on what grain size bullets i should use tha would be extremely helpful. Thanks again.

These rifles appear to have had a bad reputation with the Italians who had to use them. The 1870/87/15 was a WWI emergency conversion, and was apparently know as "Il Terribile" - The Awful One. Often sold as the "Garibaldi Rifle", which is, of course, total B-S. And I do not know of anyone who has fired one. You would be well advised to keep the load firmly at the light end of the range. The normal .264" diameter bullet is a touch undersized for the Carcano, so that will help to avoid stress on the ancient mechanism. I would not recommend trying the .268" Hornady bullets specifically made for the Carcano. They work fine in my 91/41, but that is a much more modern design of rifle, and mine was was arsenal reconditioned in 1947.

As to the cleaning rod : if it is of the correct length, then the fact that you still have some sticking out beyond the muzzle indicates that there is no "stripped wood" problem, but rather that the bottom end of the hole is clogged wth debris, and you are trying to screw the rod into that!

oh well that makes sense i did pull some stuff out of the hole but never really thought anything of it. it is still tight in there so as a display it is ok for now but when i go to shoot it i`ll need to clean it out a little more. thanks for the input. The bullets i have for it aren`t the hornady ones made for the carcano. i think they are privi partisan rounds that are 6.5 carcano but im not going to shoot those since i`m unsure if they`ll be good for the old action or not. At best if they aren`t that good i have a friend who does reloading so he`ll be able to help me take apart the bullets and put new powder in them if need be.

The issue with firing factory ammo in these is not bullet weight, but powder charge. The 6.5 mm. cartridge generates pressures far in excess of the Vetterli's design pressure (roughly double). The bore on mine is pretty close to .264. Regardless of bore diameter, the .268 bullets are not recommended for reduced loads, which rules out use in the Vetterli-Carcano. If you want to shoot it, you need to use reduced handloads with .264 jacketed bullets or loads using cast lead bullets.

That`s what i figured. My friend can fire the carcano ammunition and then we can salvage the brass. I bought 150 bullet heads from him and now he`s searching for the firing caps for the back of the brass. we downloaded some possible loads online from other people who have successfully shot these delicate guns and they all seem to say just about the same thing when it comes to the load. I had the gun checked out by a gunsmith who is very familiar with these rifles and after about a week he concluded that it could be safe to fire but to watch out in case a microcrack developed over the years. Thanks again everyone and i hope to have some pictures of my rifle and its bayonet very soon!

Here`s some photos of this old war horse. She`s beat around the bushes a bit but she still looks nice. Sorry if these photos are grainy to everyone. I might need to go to another place with better lighting to take better pics.

I actually just purchased one of these today from a dealer at a gun show. He said that it should be fine to shoot the modern Prvi loads, so I went ahead and shot eight rounds so far and I still have my face, so I guess I'm lucky. I hadn't done any research, so I was unaware of the risks.

Good luck with your rifle, sir, and if you happen to find or create some good reloading data, please share!!

Thanks
-2fit

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Originally Posted by 2fit661ca

Good luck with your rifle, sir, and if you happen to find or create some good reloading data, please share!!

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I thoroughly agree. Those rifles have a bad reputation, so producing any modern reloading data that would serve to rehabilitate them would be something in the nature of a public service!

Thanks to all. I`ll keep researching reloads and if i find anything i`ll post it up. Until then this old rifle is just going to look pretty on its display sand next to is bayonet.

I'm still a novice with reloading, so you'll have to bare with me on this. Hornady makes a 95 grain A-max bullet. Would it make sense to load this bullet under Hornady's weakest recommended load (considering powder strength AND volume) and expect about the lowest chamber pressure? That was my plan.

-2fit

I`m not real sure but that is a great question. I`m a novice myself at this and anything to do with reloading i simply go to my friend`s house and work with him to get supplies.Then I pay him to reload bullets for me, which works out for both of us seeing as how he likes to see any "new" rifles I buy at gun shows from time to time. So far he has been reloading 7.7 mm Jap ammo for my arisaka and now he is starting to gather the supplies for the vetterli vitali. I`ll get his opinion on the subject and repost anything I find regarding reloads for this old gun in the future for all to enjoy.

I sold mine at the Michigan Antique Arms Collectors show last Saturday for $ 125.00. Nothing too remarkable but nice clean, shiney bore. No bayonet.:)

Hallo everybody.
About the price: here in Italy a 70/87/15 vetterli in decent conditions fetches from 450 to 700 Euros (585-:-910 USD), I think these rifles are well made and the Army wanted the "new" 1891 mainly because everione else had one (but some had the good sense to wait like the Germans), I have never heard of accidents happening shooting these rifles in their times and usually are made with very good materials and wokmanship for their time, the same can't allways be said for the 1891 (mannliker-Carcano) the barrel in particular is of simple carbon steel and subject to deformation if overheated.
The name "Terribile" was given to the rifle during I WW because it was used mainly by the Territorial Militia the "Milizia Territoriale" was IRONICALLY called "La Terribile" that means Terrible/terrifying and has no reference to a presumed dangerousness of the rifle itself.

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Originally Posted by csan50

The name "Terribile" was given to the rifle during I WW because it was used mainly by the Territorial Militia the "Milizia Territoriale" was IRONICALLY called "La Terribile" that means Terrible/terrifying and has no reference to a presumed dangerousness of the rifle itself.

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That just goes to show: if you want to make a joke, it is important to use the :D or else it may be taken seriously!

Claudio, the quoted price supports my observation that prices in Italy are much higher than in Germany. Thanks to "Terribile" these rifles will only fetch about a third of that price in Mauserland, similar to the previously quoted dollar figure (125), but in Euros.

I think the same can be said for America too. They tend to bring about $110-$170 in decent shape by what i`ve seen at local gun shows. I got mine for $125 in decent shape with a bayonet so I feel I got kinda lucky. I think popularity will catch up eventually once there are no more WW1 rifles left on market for everyone and all that will be left are the 70/87/15`s. Here`s to positive thinking!

I have used reduced loads in several of my rifles. A big benefit is reduced recoil and well as pressure. Here is what Hogdon says about their reduced loads:

Hodgdon Powder Company developed the following reduced loads for use on deer and similarly sized game animals. The bullets chosen were originally designed for single shot pistols and their lower velocities. These rifle loads have been developed to closely approximate those pistol velocities, resulting in similar performance on game animals. Thus,
producing loads effective to 200 yards with minimal recoil.
H4895 powder was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. For years H4895 has been the top choice of cast bullet shooters. For this type of shooting, loads are reduced even more than the hunting loads listed here. To create this type of target and plinking loads, we recommend our 60% rule with H4895: Refer to our latest reloading manual or the Reloading Data Center found on this website; take the maximum H4895 charge listed for any given cartridge and multiply it by 60%. The shooter can create a 1500 to 2100 f/s load, depending on the bullet
weight shown. This works ONLY where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use H4895 in a cartridge where it has not been shown.

6.5 Carcano Reduced Loads
Attachment 38723

"Reduced Loads For 6.5 Carcano"

Thank you, good sir! That is awesome! I feel that I can shoot my Vetterli with confidence now.

One further cautionary note. These rifles have been in civilian hands for decades following military service and were often subjected to loads which they were never designed to withstand. The original BP round developed around 24,000 psi, whereas MILSUP 6.5 varies somewhat btwn 40 - 42K psi. During WWI everyone was chronically short of arms and virtually all of the European parties converted stocks of obsolete BP rifles to their current smokeless round as an expedient of war. A rifle marginally capable of handling a given round is better than issuing sharp sticks.
When buying one, you must consider its prior use as well as your own intended use. Metal fatigue is cumulative and prior use over the past 130 years or so is most often a total unknown. Too many of the ones on the market have cracks in the locking lugs, which warrant careful examination before using any load as well as periodic reexamination. While that is true of any rifle, it is particularly true of those BP rifles converted to smokeless for use in WWI....whether a Gras, Berdan II, Vetterli or whatever.

that`s a great point. I have seen BP rifles of that age with some cracks in them but never thought much about that. I did check my rifle out and there were no obvious cracks on the outside or in where the bullet would be met by the firing pin so I think it can shoot but for now I`m just going to use it as a beautiful display piece on my desk at home (granted the desk is a very long antique desk that my uncle gave us before his passing).

Richard has an excellent point. Remember that the ware and and damage that he is talking about is rarely easily visible to the untrained eye, so while you may think you know what it "looks like", it goes much deeper than appearance and it is better to be safe than sorry.

That`s a great point. When I decide to go and begin a further investigation into its condition I`ll bring it to a better trained eye than I to see if I should ever fire it. If I can`t shoot it, to me it is a beautiful $150 display piece for my desk.

Good for you, have a gunsmith look at it, a good one. And talk to an experienced reloader talk to him about your ammunition. The chief problem most are concerned about is keeping ammunition low pressure.

Also, watch the bore liner. Many of the rifles had liners installed in the original barrel and there have been occasions when the liner has come loose.

You are right, they are interesting and, in their own way, beautiful.

Has anyone considered magnafluxing a gun? Would this work to find cracks in the bolt or receiver/chamber?