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I have recieved what looks like to read No4 MK 1/3 (F) FTR. This rifle has the modern day style rifle stock but with the solid brass butt plate. The metal finsh is a Blued look other than the original matt black finish. i noticed the barrel is more black than blued. Not sure if that is the way they came? Is this rifle rare in anyway. I can not find any other rifles as mine is online. The seriel number reads 60L9924. Please can anyone give me some insight on my new peice. Thanks
The serial number indicates the receiver was originally manufactured in Canada at the Long Branch factory.
The No.4 Mk 1/3 indicates it was originally manufactured as a No.4 Mark 1* but that after the Second World War, it was modified at the Fazakerley (F) factory to the new No. 4 Mark 2 standard.
No.4 Mark 1/3 rifles are not exactly rare but are less common. Yours has been sporterized to make a hunting rifle, as can be seen in your pictures
Thank you Amatikulu! The Rifle has f '53 stamped on many places, so its cool to find out that it was there in Fazarkerley in 1953. It was so hard to find info about this rifle on other websties for some reason. Out of curiosity, do you know the possible value of the gun? and also if there was any way to tell if it had a specific use like a sniper rifle or something before it got modified?
Snipers would have T fer telescope stamped next to the serial number or on the wrist left side. The Long Branch rifles are good, well made, shoot well, hold their value well.
Here's a question that'll test you, how many grooves are in the bore twist? 2, 4, 5, or 6? n fact they all shoot good, but its fun to know.
The /3 modification is a remounted trigger, something that improves accuracy in Enfield so much that they retrofitted many rifles, ala the No4 MK2 had the new trigger, and /3's are earlier No4 Mk1's that are retrofitted, good to have. If you can see FTR 53 anywhere it means your rifle was overhaiuled at that time, also good to have, not a problem if not there.
Welcome to the forum, you now have a rifle that will shoot about Nazi helmet sized target at one kilometer range, ie 1,000 yards,now its up to you to be that good, lol.
Do you want the real truth as an answer to your question Warlord? Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but it's diplomatic and truthful but I'll be as kind as I can be. Your old No4 Enfield rifle has been sporterised to within an inch of its life. It's been chopped so as to irreversibly changed to something it never was. I know that others say different, and I'm sorry to disagree wiuth RJ here, but with a free floating barrel like that that looks like it's been lightened (very small photos.....), with harmonics that have never been put to the test and without even a standard backsight by which to calibrate it to, then using that rifle, you could never be sure that any two shots would form a group.
Its value is that of the parts that haven't been got at because sporterised rifles like this are regarded as mongrels, neither fish nor fowl. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news
Sorry not true. The receiver hung trigger has no effect on accuracy but is MUCH easier to set up compared to that of a Mk.1/1*. Which was the reason that it was introduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJW NZ
WarLord, your pictures are very small and with my poor eyesight I have difficulty in seeing clearly what your pictures show. However, I have restored several sporterized rifles to original configuration but they all conformed to a certain criteria:
1. the serial number on the back face of the bolt handle had to be the same as the serial number on the receiver (in your case the receiver number should be electropencilled on the left receiver flat - and should also be on the left side of the butt socket.
2. The barrel had to be in good condition and be uncut - i.e. the bayonet lugs should still be present at the end of the barrel.
3. The receiver should not be drilled and tapped for scope mounts. (yours may have a non gunsmithing mount from what I can make out).
If these criteria are met, the relevant fore stock, handguards and barrel bands can be found for reasonable pices at several dealers (such as bdlltd.com ) or from e-bay.
Look carefully Amatikulu and you'll see that the backsight ears have been lopped off and that the rear of the body has been, at best, castrated. The body (and barrel?) are fit for scrap. Unless someone collects what some politely call 'sporterised' No4's. And even then, the one or two people in the universe who do collect them, concentrate on the quality conversions............... The words 'quality' and 'converted No4's' don't seem to sit well together
If you hunt and like the rifle have it checked out by a good gunsmith, if it checks out safe to shoot see if it shoots reasonably well and if so enjoy it.
It is not collectible or restorable but it still is a Lee-Enfield and still is one of the smoothest and quickest cycling bolt action rifles out there.
Peter: The No. 5 was, of course, the original "sporterized" No. 4 . I've read in all the usual sources about the inherent accuracy problems in this model. In your experience, was it really that bad? A couple of the sources talk about No.5's being rebuilt with a standard No. 4 action body (to improve accuracy) which would make a standard No.4 B (bubbified). Warlord 69th- you've undoubtedly gathered from the honest replies here that your rifle has little collector value but up north chopped No. 4's have made effective (and cheap) deer rifles for generations. Take your rifle to the range and see what it will do on paper.
Ridolpho
Come on Ridolpho....... the hardy No5 was hardly a sporterised No4 except in the eyes of those newspaper and magazine reporters of the era. It was accurate up to a point but you'd soon find that during a fierce bout of 'hot' shooting, say during a gun battle or even on a rapid and snap shoot, that the zero would just start to go, well....., anywhere. The mystery was always that the following day when things had cooled down, the thing was accurate - but the MPI had changed!
The No5's re-bodied were just a means of...... anyway, I won't repeat myself as it's been told several times and will be in the archives but it meant that a foreign nations (usually the Pacific Rim armies with an allegiance to the UK) got back, repaired, the same quantity of weapons that they put in.
I also dispute the 'accuracy' as defined (as opposed to zeroing ability here.....) of such a rifle, at the 300-400 plus ranges you'd certainly hit things, but not necessarily things that you were aiming at!
The only point I would make about these sported conversions, which were common when I was a young lad in the US, is that they will often shoot very well with reduced velocity loads. The MK VII ammunition tht these rifles were loaded for had a 175 grain bullet @ 2440 FPS at the muzzle of a 25.2 inch barrel (assuming a like new barrel). Many folks found that with the common No 1 MK III conversions that once the fore wood was removed the rifles did not group well at all, the same was true of the No 4 conversions. If the velocity was reduced on the 180 grain bullet to around 2,050 fps or 2,250 with the 150 grain bullet, the accuracy become consistent enough that the rifle was a fine 150 yard deer rifle, which is about all you need in Pennsylvania. The resultant load is pretty much a duplicate of the 30-30, which was considered a prime deer cartridge in my youth.
The lee loading company used to make a simple hand loader kit that allowed the home re-loader to assemble neck resized only cases, so it was possible for the hunter to assemble 20 or 30 rounds in an evening, which would last the prudent hunter two or more years including zero rounds. The hunters did not shoot their rifles that much.
These conversions fall in the same range as the numerous 30-40 Krag, Marlin 336 and 36 rifles as far as general utility. When the cartridge was down loaded to these lower velocities, not only did the accuracy improve but he recoil was much reduced as well and the Lee Enfield sporter, along with the Krag was said to be an ideal rifle for that quick a second shot. The slick bolt and reasonable iron sights made it not at all a bad choice for PA hunting conditions.
In a time when spare dollars were not that common, these rifles (which could be bought for as little as 9.95 cents in the early 1960s) were the path to having a very capable deer rifle for those on a limited budget. The prime time of these conversions use was, at least in local lore, in the late 1950s to early 1970s. After that the low cost scopes and new /second hand reasonable cost hunting rifles seemed to have supplanted these arms for sporting use. This also corresponds with a trend in hunters using higher velocity cartridge such as the 30-06. The medium calibers (30-30, 32 special, 257 Roberts, 303, 30-40 Krag) fell into disrepute at this time for some reason.
You often see these discarded hunting tools of two generations ago for very little money in the gunshops and gun shows of PA. Very often some of the home built sporters are very finely finished by men who might spend an entire winter carefully going over the rifle in order to make it a thing of pride. Some of these men were very skilled and some conversions are very nice. I am sort of fond of these rifles for what they represent. True they are not collectable to a military rifle collector, but whenever I see one in a friend’s collection, most often there is a story regarding it having come from a Grandfather or Uncle who owned it and used it.
So enjoy your rifle for what it is. If you play around with it you may find that it will shoot very well, I think the common expectation of hunters was 5 shots in 3 inches @ 100 yards, something under 5 inches at 150 yards with glass or iron sights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Peter's all correct in his observations about the mods to your rifle and their effect, I wasn't paying enough attention to the pics at all. The stock military rifle is a good rifle, sporterized types are for a different purpose, so don't be discouraged, its just good at different things, like comparatively shorter range hunting in the bush, now you have one, it'll be getting lonely in the safe...
I now have what looks like to be a 1917 S.HT L.E Enfield III. The barrel has a HV (High Volocity) stamped on it. The rifle has not or does not appear to be sporterised for there is no blewed finish on metal. I was told from the last owner the weapon was handed down to family from a service man who used it in some military conflict. could be BS. Can anyone tell me some history on this weapon please.