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Hi,
I have owned this Martini mk4 marked for the NWMP, for around 20yrs. I know very little about it.
I've seen one other of these, at a gun show in Oshawa, Ont yrs ago. I understand they were police sharp-shooters rifles issued in limited numbers to the police. I'm interested to find out any info on the gun, and would appreciate hearing any comments from anyone with any knowledge of these rifles.
Regards Ian
Did you mean to attach photos? If so, I am not seeing any. What sort of NWMP markings does the rifle have?
If it is a Mark IV, as you say, I doubt if it is legitimate, since Canada never acquired any of that model, to my knowledge. "Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973" indicates that the only Martini-Henry rifles issued to the NWMP were 10 Mark I rifles in 1874 and then another 10 rifles sent to Prince Albert by the Militia Department in 1895 for use in competitive rifle shooting by Force members. The first ten came from the batch of 2,100 Mark I rifles the purchased by Canada in 1873 (received early 1874) and the other ten could have come either from that batch or from the 5,000 Mark III rifles purchased in 1885. This circa-1896 photograph of the NWMP shooting team shows them armed with Martini-Henry rifles, which clearly do not have the very distinctive Mark IV receiver configuration and extra-long lever -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0d4f77cc-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3a3adf7e-1.jpg
Hi GrantR,
Thanks for your response, I will happily post some photo's, I'll get my wife to take them as she's good at it, and I suck.
I've seen this photo before but never so clearly, thanks, if you look at the Sargent sitting below the corporal on the left, I would say he is holding one of the mark IV rifles looking at the length of the lever.
The stamp is on the butt the typical pressed in roundel type, N.W.M.P. and the date. You will be able to see it's quite clear, when I post the photo's, asap.
I once saw a guy from Alberta Displaying his rifle at the Oshawa, Ontario Gun show about 20yrs ago, and he had the exact same rifle on display, stamped just the same. He was a lot more informed than I, and told me that four of these rifles were obtained and used as sharpshooters rifles. I believe he had this photograph and a couple of others on the display. It was a travelling effort put on by the RCMP. That's the limit of my Knowledge.
Regards Ian
Ian:
The rifle being held by the Sergeant is clearly not a Mark IV, as the lever is definitely not long enough for that. If it were a Mk IV, the loop of the lever would actually be well out of sight behind the prone man.
The glint of light off the front of the triggerguard of that rifle creates a bit of an illusion of a somewhat longer lever, but most of the triggerguard is in shadow ..... I have drawn a line in this detail cropped from the photo, denoting the rear of the triggerguard (and thus the forward end of the lever) -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...177e41cf-1.jpg
As you can see, the length of the straight section of the lever between the triggerguard and the loop is definitely of sufficient length for the rifle to be a Mark IV, as seen here above a Mark III for comparison -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ce8d7094-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c82c6be1-1.jpg
Hi,
I went and dug out the 3 that I have the Mk IV is so long I'd forgotten how long, the other two I have are the Mk III BSA in 303 and a Greener which has a much shorter looking lever, and what I have out.
Anyway the branded mark is on the RH side of the butt marked N.W.M.P. POLICE, it's a MKIV 1 there is another smaller round mark behind the police stamping but I cannot read it. The wife say's she will snap it tomorrow morning. The M is not clear as something hit the stock at sometime in it's life, but the rest is very clear, and as typed.
Regards Ian
Hi Grant,
Thanks for taking the time to extra enhance the photo's, I've had my two rifles out and compared them today with the help of a friend, and I hate to say this but I'm becoming more convinced that the Sargent is holding a mk IV. The higher glint on it is from the trigger guard, then it goes into the shadow, and the remaining glint is the long lever, which I think is the only way this is explainable. As with the shorter, and thus more angular lever it looks quite different. Only visible because it falls in the hollow of the guy's back just above his backside. The Rifle I own is a sergeants model by the way.
Like I say in the little blurb, it may well be wishful thinking on my part, it's hard to say and just to add to it,in my comparision one lever I'm looking at is blued (the long one ) and the other clean shinny steel.
Anyhow Thanks for all your time, I did think it was just a fish story on my friends part, when trading the rifle to me. Until I ran into the display at the gun-show and he relayed the same story. How did they win so much, with those crappy sights.
Take a look at the photo's, the wife did her best, she took loads more, so let me know if there's anything else you would like. Thanks again.
Regards Ian
Sorry Ian, but the Sergeant in this photograph is not holding a Mark IV, although I realize you want to convince yourself that he is ...... Look at the size of the triggerguards in the two side-on rifle views I posted and you will realize that the "higher glint" in the old photo is light reflection only from the front curve of the triggerguard in the photo, the bottom and back curve of the guard are not reflecting light. The straight part of the lever starts about where I have put the white line.
I hesitate to post further in this discussion, because you so clearly want to believe that your Martini-Henry Mark IV was North West Mounted Police issue. However, I regret to advise that the roundel in your photos is not an NWMP mark. You indicated that you feel this rondel says "N.W.M.P Police" but, to my knowledge, the Mounted Police have never used a combination of all of the letters in their abbreviated name with the word "Police" - it would have been either "N.W.M.P" or "N.W.M. Police". At any rate, it makes no sense that a small number of Mark IV Martini-Henry rifles be acquired for the NWMP when Canada held over 7,000 Mark I and Mark III rifles .... most of which never saw military service, but were extensively issued or loaned out to both military and non-military competitive shooting teams.
I am satisfied that this rondel in fact is "N.W.F.P. Police" - referring to the police force in what was the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan. (In 2008, Pakistan changed the name of the province to "Khyber Pakhtunkhwa", purportedly to get away from "imperial/colonial" connections.)
Most of the other markings shown in your photos - other than the original markings applied at Enfield - show clearly that this rifle saw its service in Pakistan. For example, the "PAK" mark on the nocksform is well known as denoting service in that portion of the British Raj.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...51ef3c82-1.jpg
Similarly, the R.P. mark on the buttstock is also a very well known mark denoting the arsenal at Rawul Pindi (the modern spelling of which is usually "Rawalpindi") -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...17bb1gif-1.jpg
I expect that I have no real chance of convincing you, however ....
Hi Grant,
I'm sorry I gave you that impression, I've looked and looked at that photo and it is hard to see. I must thank you for all your time, patience and effort.
When I acquired the rifle there wasn't any readily available information, and as I knew the guy who traded the rifle to me, I took it at face value. Then I was only interested in the bore condition, and not the gun story.
In all honesty, there was an M looking letter there, but then with the damage being thru the crucial letter, maybe that was the reason.
I only gave the story any credence, when I ran into the other character at the show. As I'm more of a shooter than a collector, especially back then when I only wanted to play Zulu.
Now I just thought, I would try and find out once and for all, as it's time to decide what I'm keeping, also the stock needs fixing too now.
I think you have more than made a convincing argument, with the explanation of the other marks to, which I appreciate.
All my other early Canadian guns, have the DC in a diamond stamp, which this doesn't, but I wasn't sure if it should, I suspected it probably should.
I have a prison service or provost marshal Snider, which is clearly marked with a stamp.
Anyway, I thank you very much for your time, shame about the glint in the photo, which from my perspective really made it look like the rifle, and it would have made for a good story, oh well.
One more question if you don't mind, would this have been issued to British troops or local troops, like my Citadel 303, as this would explain the poor outer condition.
Regards Ian
harlton, we see piccies of the rifle please?
Hi,
Sure, just click on see pictures by Harlton are there they are. Sorry I'm a novice forum person. Any problems just let me know.
Regards Ian
Ian:
My apologies for perhaps sounding a bit "snarky" .... but I was indeed getting the impression that you were unwilling to be dissuaded from what you had been told about this rifle. (I also realize that it might have seemed like I was talking through my hat when you had seen another Mark IV with the same markings, for which the same explanation was being given. However, if that rifle was indeed marked the same as yours, then it too would have been in service in Pakistan, and presumably its owner was simply believing a similar tale about it.)
As I mentioned, no Mark IV M-H rifles are known to have been acquired by Canada. I should add that you don't simply have to take my word for this assertion, but can rely on the extensive research of such people as David Edgecombe (C.F. Brig.Gen., Ret.) author of "Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military Rifles 1855-1955" (published 2003) who spent years scouring through all available Militia Department records, parliamentary and fiscal reports, etc. to produce his book. Mind you, I am not entirely without some knowledge in the area ..... here is how he autographed my copy .... ;) ....https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6145d1b4-1.jpg
To answer your final question, Mark IV rifles were not really ever issued to British regular troops, but rather only to reserve forces and also to native and colonial troops.
It is relevant to review the circumstances and time-frame of the production and use of the Mark IV Martini-Henry. At the time it came on the scene (.... none were issued until 1888, if I recall correctly ....) Britain had already adopted its first bolt-action repeating rifle: the .303 Magazine Lee-Metford (shortly to become the Magazine Lee-Enfield upon a change of rifling design). While the new .303 rifle was in development, there was also yet another program under way to develop a reduced-caliber (.402") single-shot rifle with a re-designed Martini action - and this "Rifle, Enfield-Martini, Mark I" had actually gone into production (1887 I think) with some 65,000 rifles already finished.
With the formal adoption of the new .303 rifle in 1888, many of the existing .450 Martini-Henry Mk I, II and III rifles in the hands of troops would necessarily have to remain in service during the changeover - i.e. until all Regular troops could be re-armed with the new repeating rifle. Also, in keeping with long-standing practice, Martini-Henry rifles would remain the standard-issue rifle for British reserve troops and also for "colonial" and "native" forces for quite a few years to come. Rather than having rifles in Empire military service chambered for three different cartridges at the same time (i.e. .450 Martini-Henry, .402 Enfield-Martini and .303 Lee-Metford) the entire Enfield-Martini program was scrapped before any of those rifles got issued (except perhaps on a "trials" basis) and the many rifles already produced were altered to chamber the existing .577/.450 M-H cartridge .... with the altered rifles being re-designated as the Martini-Henry Mark IV. Manufacture of this model continued until about 100,000 Mark IV Martini-Henry rifles had been produced in total. (In these circumstances, of course, all M-H Mk IV rifles were destined for issue only to reserve and "colonial/native" troops ....)
As a matter of fact, in the receiver markings on the approximately 65,000 Enfield-Martini rifles converted to Martini-Henry Mark IV rifles, the "I" of the Roman numeral "IV" is centered directly below the arrow-point of the crown-and-arrow "lock viewers mark" underneath the date ..... because they had already been stamped as Enfield-Martini Mark I rifles. When they were converted to .577/.450 and their designation was changed to "Martini-Henry, Mark IV", a "V" was stamped alongside the existing "I" .... with the result that the "IV" is off-center in relation to the markings above it -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ddb0c182-1.jpg
Later-production rifles (such as yours), having been made after the .402" Enfield-Martini program was scrapped, were marked "IV" at the outset .... which is "centered" in relation to the markings above it ......
Hi Grant,
No worries I never took anything as Snarky, and I was viewing the picture from a different perspective, being pre-programmed by what I thought was a reliable source, with matching stories and the strange co-incidences.
Very grateful for the time you have taken with this thorough explanation. I think this explains the Martini/Peabody that the guy had on his display with the same stamp on it to.
I'm convinced it's now a fairly easy leap to assume that a dealer somewhere was stuck with some odd ball Martini's he couldn't shift back in the day, A quick change from F to M and I'm sure whoever purchased them, was just as pleased to own a piece of Canadian history, I know I was. still I would rather know the truth, than perpetuate a lie, so thank you very much.
On the plus side:- It now goes with the others I have, and takes the pressure off of repairing the butt as I would not want to screw up a NWMP logo.
A Pleasure conversing with you, and thanks for all the information, very good of you. I bet some stories could be told if only it could talk, same job different continent.
Regards Ian.
Ian:
In my collection is a Martini-Metford cavalry carbine with this mark on the butt -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c5560e8d-1.jpg
It is a nice little shooter which I traded for ..... but thankfully I had sufficient knowledge to avoid "paying" for any supposed NWMP connection or service. In addition to knowing that there is no record of the NWMP having any Martini-Metford carbines, I was also aware that this particular stamp .... fairly recognizable by many people as a legitimate NWMP marking ..... was in fact a Winchester stamp, used by that company at its factory to mark the Model 1876 carbines made for the Force - and accordingly is only legitimate on such Winchesters.
Apparently the original stamp ended up in private hands and then was lost track of ..... and this mark is known to have subsequently turned up on a variety of firearms other than NWMP Winchesters - presumably applied using either the original Winchester stamp or a copy - obviously in an attempt to fake a Mounted Police connection. The carbine is an interesting curiosity in my collection .... and also happens to be very accurate!
The only known NWMP firearm I have is a .476 Enfield Mark II revolver ..... although unmarked (not uncommon with these revolvers) its serial number is documented as one of the revolvers in NWMP service.
Could one conclude that the fellows in the photo were dressed in scarlet red tunics? That would make for an impressive scene out on the firing line.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxim
Most of them appear to be wearing either the scarlet "field frock", as seen in this Frederic Remington painting "North West Mounted Police 1887" .....
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...43fbb739-1.jpg
.... or the scarlet tunic (which was longer in the body and had more trim - e.g. the piping visible on collar and shoulder straps.)
Mind you, the chap sitting beside the trophies (on the left) must be a Senior NCO - or perhaps even a Commissioned Officer - since he is apparently wearing a rather plain version of the dark blue Patrol Jacket authorized for those ranks, somewhat like the one worn by this circa-1890 Staff Sergeant -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...450ccd6e-1.jpg
As evident from the Remington image, the service rifle of the NWMP at the time was actually the special pattern Model 1876 Winchester carbine made for them in .45-75 -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...gebelt01-1.jpg
That is what was normally used in shooting competition within the Force -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tingteam-1.jpg
Hi Grant,
I dread to think of the chaos, a legitimate stamp could do in the wrong hands. I remember the guy having a Winchester, and some revolvers, but I'm not a handgun guy,so I don't remember them, I just enjoy shooting old rifles.
I have a lee Enfield cavalry carbine in my collection, a sweet little gun.Your right about the knowledge, and I don't have sufficient to avoid problems, so I stick to ordinary guns and then I don't have to worry about them, or feel guilty when shooting or modifying them.
I cannot remember what I allowed on the trade, $800 comes to mind, which I understood to be a fair value for a good Martini back then. He wanted a Triumph Bonneville I had and couldn't use at the time, due to injury.
The rifle bore is close to perfect and the action very crisp. I was never really able to rationalise the inner to outer condition, but now with what you have told me, it comes together.
In my world a small number of specials, brought in for a competition is standard rather than unusual. So this is not an outlandish story to me, from my perspective. I'm most appreciative for all the information especially, and more than a little truth shone on the matter.
Regards Ian
Photos in your gallery appear to be that of a K98
I assume that the OP has taken the images out of his gallery, his posts on this topic having been some five months ago .....
At any rate, they were of a Mark IV Martini-Henry, including these markings -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c4f0bc9c-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cdb75b27-1.jpg
(The markings I show in Post #7 were to illustrate other Pakistan-related examples, including a much clearer Rawul-Pindi "RP" mark and roundel.)
The stamp which was being interpreted as a NWMP marking is the roundel which says "N.W.?.P. Police" - in view of the Mark of the rifle and Pakistan markings, there seems to be little doubt that the illegible letter is an "F" .... i.e. "N.W.F.P. (North West Frontier Province) Police".