Hello all, I have a No.5 I've done basically enough research on to authenticate. I was wondering, what years were these in production? It seems nearly all I stumble across are dated 1945. Thanks.
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Hello all, I have a No.5 I've done basically enough research on to authenticate. I was wondering, what years were these in production? It seems nearly all I stumble across are dated 1945. Thanks.
Tried to go back and edit my post but it was too late. To clarify, the ones I encounter are 1945 and later though mine is dated August 1944 which dispelled my belief that production began in '45. I was wondering when production did indeed begin on these. Thanks again.
The first order for lightened no 4 rifles was placed with Fazakerley in 1943 1,000 were produced. The first production batch of No 5 rifles have an FE serial number prefix with manufacture dates of 2/44 and 3/44.
Both of my examples are dated 1947 (9/47 and 10/47)
Mine is a Shirley S/N BB4063 production date 1945
1943 - 1947 although not fully approved untill Sept 44. ROF Fazakerley made most of them (approx 170,000) although BSA Shirley also made around 81,000. No5 Mk1 Declared obsolete in July 47 but made by Fazakerley untill December 47. Was only ever produced as a Mk1 although a No5 Mk2 was trialed but abandoned in December 47.
Reference: Skennerton's book 2007 pages 241 - 248.
Thanks for the info. Here's a pic of the markings on the side of the receiver. Attachment 37932
It's the only one I've ever owned and I purchased it from a vet who claims to have brought it home with him. His son said that it had been in the attic since he was a small kid. He said it was the only gun small enough for him to handle so he used to mess with it a lot. It had what I would estimate to be about 65 years worth of cobwebs an dirt in it when I got it! Cheers gents and thanks for the info.
The reference that I have, North Cape's British Enfield Rifles, Vol.2, says that production started in 1944 (@ Fazakerly & BSA) & ended in 1947. HTH.
donzi
I had one of the first batch of 1000 and it was 2/44.
Don't be a tease. More pictures please.Quote:
Originally Posted by nhetzer
Lol! I'll post some more pictures tonight after dinner. I'd love to have one of the first thousand, that's pretty neat. Mine is in pretty good shape and wasn't beat up. I feel very fortunate to have this particular gun and also that the gentleman who had it decided to part with it. He was an old Navy vet, an early UDT member. I was at the Show of Shows in Louisville with my recruiter buddies who had a table (I was active duty Navy then). I was helping out and was is uniform. We started chatting, the gun was behind the table and not for sale. By the end of the show he decided it being in his 90's meant he wasn't going to shoot it any more and deemed me worthy enough to sell it to me at a good price. I really enjoyed meeting him and it was a privilege to meet a man who lived such a storied life.
And I am certain he felt he was passing the No 5 to a good steward. UDT! I know he had high standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by nhetzer
I felt pretty humbled that he decided to let it go. He told me that he ran ops with British commandos and that he has had this gun since those days. Whether that was post WWII or not I don't know. All I do know that he did time with the Brits and that it was easier to carry their weapons due to supply chains and shortage of US ammo. This gun, according to him, was a bring back from those days. I always believe in "buy the gun, not the story" and I am the biggest skeptic you'll ever meet when it comes "amazing stories" about guns. But this gentleman's story of his career added up and his son openly spoke about all of it as well.
In the end, if he and his son were running some sort of scam to sell me a gun that wasn't technically for sale then I guess I should give them credit or going to such great lengths. ; )
Some storys are too good to be true and still are. I think I would go with true. Folks that age have very little incentive to lie, in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by nhetzer
As promised here are some more pics. This was the best I could do with the camera on my phone in my workshop.
Attachment 37970
Attachment 37971
Attachment 37972
Sorry for the relatively poor quality. The lighting is fine for working but terrible for picture taking.
The story is extremely unlikely to be true. The early issues (and possibly only war-time issues) seem to have been with airborne troops in North West Europe.
Could conceivably be SE Asia or Korea. Korea of course had UK and US units being cross-equipped at various times - famously including 41 Cdo RM using US kit & small arms.
I didn't go into depth asking loads of questions to piece it all together. As far as special operations units, I know that there are lots of unusual scenarios that take units all over the place. That is being said as a generalized and broad sweeping statement based on what I know of special operations now and back then. The odds of hundreds of guns ending up in an unlikely place would raise an eyebrow, but a few (in this case one) in the hands if someone who was part of a commando unit turning up some place unlikely isn't a stretch for me to believe. Especially if I am not even sure if we are talking about WWII or Korea. He did state he was in both conflicts. I just don't have enough info to disprove (or prove) his claim but after meeting the guy and getting to chat with him a bit about his life was enough for me to lean towards the side of believing him.
For you guys who know the history of these and the folks who carried them, any other thoughts on where their paths could have crossed?
Thanks ! I would love to add a 44/45 or even a 46. Nice looking rifle!
I wouldn't agree with HoH about the memories of some of the '.....old and bold......' In the small-arms world in which I was, the old and bold were known to be notoriously ....er.........., lets call them, er......pure horse er......... Let me think again..... 'unreliable' is the word I was looking for. Some of the old chestnuts about Sten guns being used as jumping jack charges and Bren guns being soooooooooo accurate that....... and PIAT's breaking shoulders and Boys rifles pushing you off the firing points etc etc. It didn't push my son Robert, then aged about 11 and nor did many rounds from a Barratt the same day. In fact he loved it in much the same way as he enjoyed thousands of rounds with some Sten guns
Sorry to be one of those cynics chaps but I can remember the two straight-down-the-line storytellers. One was Leslie Barham the bomber pilot and the others were a sniper pair of old farm boys/poachers from the Lincolnshire Regiment who had remained friends ever since. No dramas, just told in a cold and calculated way, just like it was. In fact to Leslie Barham, Berlin wasn't the problem, it was Essen that gave them the creeps!
Buy the gun and not the story I say - ESPECIALLY if it comes from an old boy!
I've got my steel helmet on and await the incoming mortars
When I first came to Germany, I did a few famil flights to gain my German pilot´s license and so flew with German flight instructors in any number of small West German airfields. Over and over again I heard stories about how they had shot down Spitfires, were in mini submarines, the Ardennes etc. etc. And they were all younger than me (I was eight when the war ended). In Italy, it was stories of guerilla bravery. And they were even younger! The genuine article hardly ever talks.
True, getting an old digger to open up, is like trying to prise money from a scots purse.
(Come to think of it, I don't say much either, unless I'm with mates from the same era ......and then it's only about the good times.)
One war story I have heard that I believe. I was talking to and old gent who I deliverd prescriptions to who had recently lost his wife and had no children so he liked to chat. We were talking about history and somehow military service came up. He asked if I had a few minutes and I did . I followed him to his storage room and he opened a locker and removed several Japanese items (what I now know to be a type 38 rifle, a flag,Nambu pistol,silk map, and holster and a Officers sword ). He also showed me a scar on is leg he said was made with the sword. No gory details or embelished heroics. I found out several years later after his death from his nephew that he was a Raider in the Pacific. His story, true or not helped inspire my intrest in milsurps. I have found memories of him.
To clarify gents, he didn't pour his heart out to me. Not at all. He saw me in my uniform as I was checking out his table. We started talking Navy and I asked when and where he served. He spoke very vaguely and said he had been all over the place. His son chimed in and spilled the beans about him being a UDT. He was very humble about it. He asked where I had been and when I mentioned my time in England he pulled out the No.5 and told me what I told you all.
I understand the skeptics and I've heard some whoopers out there too. I work for the VA and regularly spend a lot of time around guys who would have you think they won the war all by themselves ; ) My BS meter is pretty well tuned. But as I said, I really didn't feel like this fella was making it up. Usually guys at gun shows lie to sell a gun. This gun wasn't even for sale. He was liquidating his collection and decided to hold onto it for sentimental reasons. I came back to drop off some Navy swag from the recruiter's table (stickers, pens, a hat etc) and then passed by a last time to say goodbye. The last time he told me that he decided that he wanted to sell his gun to me. If memory serves me right he wouldn't take more than $200 for it. I understand the skepticism and I certainly don't fault anyone for it (you can take off your helmet now : )
$200 is an incredible bargain. The rifle looks an excellent early example with a lovely finish - maybe it goes without saying, but I suggest don't clean or re-finish any part of it. Nice jungle sling, too.
I believe I have a pretty well tuned one as well which was supported somewhat with my little story being backed up by fellows nephew. Guess he could have won the stuff in a poker game but I do not believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nhetzer
My dad was in the PTO Okinawa etc.. ,Pharmasist Mate. Must have been pretty traumatic. He never shared any details. May God bless them all.
Hooked on...:
I agree. I think sometimes the average Joe may see a little old man an forget that he was once a brave young man who was often put into extraordinary situations. They don't call them the greatest generation for nothing. Thanks for sharing your story as well.
As I mentioned before, I work for the Veteran's Administration. While I meet many, many vets, I meet their families even more often as I am a representative for one of our National Cemeteries. Part of my job is to research their records to ensure proper information is put upon the headstone. Rank, branch of service, war periods in which they served as well as any decorations. I can't tell you how many times I've blown families away when I show them what the inscription on the headstone will be and they see "Silver Star" or "Purple Heart". One family believed a particular gentleman was a supply clerk all through WWII. Turns out he was a highly decorated member of the Airborne from D-Day all the way to his last station being Berlin. His wife didn't even know (second wife).
Sorry or the lengthy post but I just wanted to illustrate how so many people forget that so very many if these men are heroes, and not just a sweet old man who drinks coffee up at the local diner all day.
My dads favorite activity in his later years was to drink coffee at the local diner. Actually it was not a diner but the local KFC a buddy of his owned. Thank you for your service and continued service to our veterans.:thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by nhetzer
I always make it a point to shake their hands and thank them for their service (I've gotten my 10 and 8 year old nephews in the habit of doing the same). I appreciate the kind words regarding my own service and my continued service is an honor and a privilege. The guys that carried these wonderful milsurps we collect are a big part of what makes them so amazing. We can't go back and time and see occupied France or truly experience what a vision D-Day must have looked like with the sheer number of ships and planes, but we can experience living, tangible history through the weapons and gear they carried. And good story every now and then from one of the fellows that used them really helps bring them back to life.
As an aside from down memory lane what is the serial number of the wee beasty?
When I was a lad I spent an unforgettable evening with a Boer War veteran whose father, Henry Lugg, had taken part in the defense of Rorke's Drift.
The serial number in A3484.
A nice find then no 3,484 off the production line at Faz or taking into account the pre production marked FE the 4,484 off the line.
Actually it would be no 13,483* off the line, 14,483* taking into account the pre-production 1000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie48
I have rifle no 524 (or 1524)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../444no5a-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4no5mk1a-1.jpg
* the rifle numbers went from 1 to 9999, there was not a rifle with the No 10000 so you have to subtract 1 number from every prefix, ie rifle s/n A1 was the 10,000th rifle.
Of course sorry your right, a very nice looking Faz there 5thBatt. I wonder if we will ever know the true number manufactured as even Skennerton has come across rifles serialed well outside the published final figures.
The total of 169,807 often quoted as Fazakerley's production is in fact the production up to rifle serial number S8823 which would have been assembled October/November 1945, this, plus production continuing untill the end of 1947 & prefix AC, we must add about another 97,000 giving us a total of around 267,000 Fazakerley No5sQuote:
Originally Posted by Aussie48
I have two No 5's, both were brought back from Malaya, as it was known theen, by my older Brothers, my father, a WW 1 veteran, wouldn't allow me to tough them. They lived in the loft and were forgotten about until Dad dies in 1966 when Mum decided to live with my Sister and I moved to Australia. I took the carbines with me, a 1944 and a 1945 dated model, both have blackened stocks and are the plain wood fore-end types.
Like a lot have said, Neither my Father, WW1 and WW2, nor my Brothers, WW2 , Malaya and Cyprus, would say much about their adventures in the real war zones.