Inland M1 Carbin - 6/44 D-Day

Dears Friends and Collectors,

I would be very happy to receive Your impressions, suggestions and ideas about this Inland M1 Carbine - serial # 5,268,xxx June of 1944 (D-Day).
Unfortunatly no marks over the hammer.
Were the trigger group and all the other parts manufactured by Inland within a reasonable window of time ?
Price required Euro 600 ... about $750

Here are all the pictures I could take.
Thank You.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img5808f-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mg5809zm-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mg5811uv-1.jpg

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First, nice carbine. I've never seen a flaming bomb on an Inland receiver or bolt like that. I wonder when it was done. The only thing that seems off is the mag catch button and the hammer, although I may be missing something.

Thank you, deldriver.
I asked to the dealer who has the carbine at moment and he told me that hammer and trigger are marked "SG" (Saginaw) so maybe not correct parts.
But I can always look for them in USA and replace them later on.

Nice carbine, but could not have been used at Normandy on June 6, 1944. It has some later parts and as you said some substituted parts, so it's not in WWII configuration. Those strange little stamps are not Ordnance marks - they are the marks of another country which had possession of the carbine at some point. This is also evidenced by the number stamped on the RH side of the receiver - not done by the U.S.

Thank you, INLAND44.

The number "6726" has been for sure stamped in Italy, that's the catalogue number for the M1 Carbine.
RICERCA CATALOGO NAZIONALE ARMI
If you type "6726" in the first field and press "INVIA" key, you will see the M1 Carbine listed there.

http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/h/...dGi84AQ2DR.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deldriver

First, nice carbine. I've never seen a flaming bomb on an Inland receiver or bolt like that. I wonder when it was done. The only thing that seems off is the mag catch button and the hammer, although I may be missing something.

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Round bolt and we can't see if it's high wood or not. Not sure if the adjustable rear sight would be correct or not.

Nice carbine regardless of all that!

I would give a better than average chance that the bolt and rear sight are original to the carbine. The hammer and mag catch can be field replacement pieces especially the mag catch.

Thank you all for your answers.

Three more pictures of the wood

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img5843f-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img5844q-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img5845g-1.jpg

It has been through at least one rebuild as it also has the type 4 safety,the second P stamped on the stock and the hammer and trigger but the rest of it is correct for the serial number.

I found a complete original Inland trigger group at ebay.com but seller stated he can only ship to Lower 48.
Some of You can please help me receiving the trigger group from ebay dealer and reshipping it to me to Italy ?
I will pay anticipately any cost and I will take care of the auction.
If some of You is willing to help me can please send me a PM.
Thank you.

I was thinking the round bolt was good on this serial number. I didn't even notice the flip safety until the above mention of it. I still really like its looks.

Would this trigger group fit well in my M1 Carbine ?
M1 Carbine Type II Complete Trigger Group Inland | eBay

I doubt the IRCO sight is original. Probably would have been an Inland-marked sight (H.I.) that early if it had an adjustable sight at all.

Maybe it came out of factory with old style sights and they have been replaced later on.

An user at Italian forum suggested me this link I 'm glad to share with you
U.S. Carbines during the American Occupation

Can't see the hammer marks on the housing in the one you posted from ebay. On your pictures it looks like only one type has been used. I don't know if I would change the housing.

Housing should be fine.
Also possible for the rear adj sight.
I'm curious about the Type I barrel band?
I am seeing a Type I... right?

CH-P777

5, 0 mil Inland here with original .U. marked leaf/flip sight, Type II band (unmarked). Type III trigger housing with vertical Inland logo.
5,219,xxx Inland 5-44 barrel with HI adj rear sight (can easily read the Inland name behind rear sight) , Type II band marked //
Both with Type III hammers and Type V slides ( PI )
Both with push safeties with the dimples we find on the Inlands.
Both with M marked Type III magcatches ( EI )

HTH,
Charlie-painter777

Inland 5,061,238

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture006-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture002-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture007-2.jpg
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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture006-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture003-1.jpg




Inland 5,219,465

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC08150-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC08118-1.jpg
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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC08138-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bizio

he told me that hammer and trigger are marked "SG" (Saginaw)

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Does anybody have any info on lateral parts transfer Saginaw to Inland at this particular time of production. Saginaw had just completed its carbine production contract and they are both divisions of General Motors Corp. Just a thought - maybe the SG parts are original to this Inland carbine. It would be a shame if Bizio scrapped an as-manufactured condition carbine just to make it more 'correct'

Most of the prime contractors were informed of their contracts being cancelled in Jan. 1944(IIRC),almost all curtailed their parts productions as not to have extra parts. Ordnance Dept. probably told them "I will not pay you for 2 months of parts on the cancellation day". Rockola was the only prime contractor that was able to go into May 1944 and produce carbines(little over 9000). So chances are the pieces were replaced during some type of repair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

5, 0 mil Inland here with original .U. marked leaf/flip sight, Type II band (unmarked). Type III trigger housing with vertical Inland logo.
5,219,xxx Inland 5-44 barrel with HI adj rear sight (can easily read the Inland name behind rear sight) , Type II band marked //
Both with Type III hammers and Type V slides ( PI )
Both with push safeties with the dimples we find on the Inlands.
Both with M marked Type III magcatches ( EI )

HTH,
Charlie-painter777

Inland 5,061,238

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Amazing beauty you have there, painter777 ! Compliments !

I don't think we could rule out that this carbine was used at Normandy. Can't say for sure either.
The later upgraded parts could have been added after.
I find the Type IA barrel band very interesting, along with the small bomb stamp on the receiver and bolt.

Bizio,
Any way you could get a close up picture of the Bomb stamp?
Maybe trying the 'Macro Mode' on a camera?

Cheers,
Charlie-painter777

Painter777,

this is the best picture I could take, unfortunatly out of focus
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img5847e-1.jpg

I investigated and those two marks over the bolt and the receiver are not US Flaming Bombs.
They are Belgian proof marks instead. The carbine went through one of the Proof banks recognized also in Italy and this is the reason why it has not Italian proof marks.

Please have a look to the fourth mark from the bottom here
Belgio

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../belgio3-1.jpg

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/2b6yxs-1.jpg https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2ltmxdu-1.jpg

I do think the rebuilding was done at FN post war. This one did not make it ashore on D-Day but sure could have been with replacement troops after that later in the war.

Some more Belgian (Liege) proof marks over the barrel ...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img5848y-1.jpg

Who can please explain me the differences among trigger groups (Type 1, 2 and 3) ?
Which correct Type should fit my M1 Carbine ?
Thank you.

Bizio,
From what I can see, you have a Type III Inland Trigger Housing, which is correct for your serial number.
You'd need to swap out your current:
Hammer, Trigger, Mag Catch and safety to make your internals all Inland.

I found these searching GunBrokers auction site. I know and trust the seller 81MM, he may have everything you need, but I don't know if he'll ship outside the USA. You can contact him through the "Ask the seller a question" option on the auction page.

Inland Type III Flat Hammer: M1 Carbine, Hammer, Inland. HI marked. WWII : Small Rifle Parts at GunBroker.com

Inland Type II Trigger: M1 Carbine, Trigger, Inland. RI marked . WWII : Small Rifle Parts at GunBroker.com

Inland Type III Magcatch: Rifles, Shotguns and Handguns for Sale - Buy Handguns, Rifles, and Shotguns Online at GunBroker.com

Un-marked Type III Push Safety: M1 CARBINE PARTS - PUSH SAFETY : Other Gun Accessories & Parts at GunBroker.com


HTH,
Charlie-Painter777

Thank you, painter777.

81MM is the seller of the first three items I listed above, his name is Eddy Yuja and as honest as they come.

Do Not buy anything from Riverbank Armory, they use these seller names on GB and Ebay....
m1carbineparts.com .......... Rifles, Shotguns and Handguns for Sale - Buy Handguns, Rifles, and Shotguns Online at GunBroker.com

abcleigh ................... Rifles, Shotguns and Handguns for Sale - Buy Handguns, Rifles, and Shotguns Online at GunBroker.com


Beware of Fake Reproduction parts.

Good Luck,
Charlie-Painter777

I already received answer to my email by Eddy.
Thank you again for your tips, painter777.

Be nice to have a few friends in Italy.
The wife and I may end up over in Naples in 2013, if my Navy daughter decides to transfer.

Cheers,
CH-P777

If you plan to visit Milan please let me know, I will be glad to meet you and your wife. :thup:

I think spare parts for M1 Carbine come cheaper in Italy than in USA.

I bought today :
a complete Inland trigger housing group all pieces included Inland marked for $88
an assembled bolt Type I "flat" for $62
a spare firing pin for $12
two Type III Push Safety (botton) for $37

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

I don't think we could rule out that this carbine was used at Normandy. Can't say for sure either.

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Well, we can come pretty close. A few factors make it way tougher than a triple bank shot:

In awarding campaign credit, the Normandy Campaign ended on July 24, 1944 (in the lull before the breakout) - that's 53 days from June 1. Barrel production stayed well ahead of final assembly for most of production. Even if not, parkerizing, assembling, proofing, targeting, inspecting, and packing didn't happen in a day.

An Army ammo supply study (ammo was Priority I for shipping space, while other ordnance was Priority II) showed an average of 40 days from leaving a depot or factory until arrival in ETO in the fall of '44 - probably took longer earlier in the year. This doesn't count unloading, sorting, or distribution. At this point, replacements were not provided arms until landing in the ETO, so that is a non-factor. Followup units that got Normandy Campaign credit were already in Britain by June 6 - their resupply for weapons damaged in training (likely a very small quantity), came out of the distribution chain (which had reserves), not right off the cargo ship.

With the ETO as the largest theater, there's always a decent chance any surviving small arm served there, but if this one did, it was a bit later. There was a carbine shortage in the ETO in the spring of '44, but the shortage was in reserve stocks. It is likely then that in filling up the deficiencies in reserve stocks, carbines of this vintage perhaps had an even better chance of going to the ETO.

Many , if not most all , USGI units ( can't speak about others ) recieved brand new small arms in the week or two before departure . During the time they were moved into thier staging area and under lock down , they degreased , tested , sighted in , cleaned and oiled and made ready for the jump off. They were given as much ammo as they wanted during this time . Busy hands , don't you know .
Chris

When I defined my M1 Carbine "D-Day" I only ment to say that my M1 Carbine came out of factory in 6/44, regardless it might be used or not in Normandy on those days.

I also own a SA M1 Garand 6/44 and I call it "D-Day Garand" as well ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

Many , if not most all , USGI units ( can't speak about others ) recieved brand new small arms in the week or two before departure .

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Evidence?

The actual circumstances were way too complex for a generalization. The policy from the beginning was for fully equipping units while still in training camps. The reality fell well short of that goal, especially early, but as production caught up with inductions, the batting average improved until reaching an acceptable level. Further, different unit types had different priorities, so what was true for a tank destroyer battalion might not be true for a QM truck company during the same month.

For those interested in facts, the Army Green Books provide a great overview of the complexities of supply. Read up on POM (Preparation for Overseas Movement) - a directive published by the War Department in early 1943. POM showdown inspections were done in embarkation camps and shortages were filled, again depending on unit priority, but with the exception of some units deploying early, it was not the general case to fully arm units just before shipping out, especially for AGF units.

If the garbled point is to say the majority or a significant minority of units had equipment deficiencies corrected in embarkation camp, it would be hard to disagree, but that point is virtually self-evident. Everyone already has a sense of the chaos.

Some units were issued weapons as soon as they got off the boat in France depending on what type of unit they were. I know of one medical unit where the orderlies were issued brand new Winchester carbines right out of the shipping crate, a sling and oiler, a pouch ,three magazines and a box of ammo.

So the medics didn't have weapons in Europe but the orderlies did?

Yes they did as they were not medical personnel per say. He was told it was for guard duty. He was in a normal hospital with a room he shared with another orderly. He put the carbine in his locker and it stayed there untouched. When they were told they were going home that they had one hour to pack and get all of their equipment out to the trucks to take them to the ship heading home. He forgot all about the carbine being in the bottom of his foot locker and packed all his gear in it and it went home with him. When he got to his home he found it and was afraid he would get charged with stealing it so he hid it under his cellar stairs where it stayed for 38 years. When my brother in-law bought it from his widow he got the carbine, the pouch with two magazines in it, the box of PC 43 head stamped ammo with 35 rounds in it and a baby food jar with the missing 15 rounds in that all for $25. That was all he had with him and all she wanted as she did not want it around. Of course I had to pay a lot more for it then that. But that was one exceptional carbine. As new unfired other then at Winchester and a five digit serial number.

you will see a lot of personnel with 03A3s, so there were a lot of guys who run what they brung. My ex father in law was an officer in the Red Ball Express. He was issued a new carbine and it was stolen out of his truck within a few days. He just did without for the duration. He said the carbines were a hot item, everyone wanted one. Why not? If you were anywhere but up in some hole across from the Germans, who wouldn't?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

Yes they did as they were not medical personnel per say. He was told it was for guard duty. He was in a normal hospital with a room he shared with another orderly. He put the carbine in his locker and it stayed there untouched. When they were told they were going home that they had one hour to pack and get all of their equipment out to the trucks to take them to the ship heading home. He forgot all about the carbine being in the bottom of his foot locker and packed all his gear in it and it went home with him. When he got to his home he found it and was afraid he would get charged with stealing it so he hid it under his cellar stairs where it stayed for 38 years. When my brother in-law bought it from his widow he got the carbine, the pouch with two magazines in it, the box of PC 43 head stamped ammo with 35 rounds in it and a baby food jar with the missing 15 rounds in that all for $25. That was all he had with him and all she wanted as she did not want it around. Of course I had to pay a lot more for it then that. But that was one exceptional carbine. As new unfired other then at Winchester and a five digit serial number.

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You're pulling my leg!!!!! That's quite the deal. Great snakes. That is something.

---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 PM ----------

I bet even if you weren't on the front lines, it might behoove you to be armed during all that chaos. AFAIK, Band of Brothers was based on true events. There was that one GI that stole a Jeep when they were in Austria, after all the fighting of the Germans was over, and the drunk guy shot another GI for the jeep. Crazy. In fact, I think it was after he had already killed some other men.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firstflabn

Evidence?

The actual circumstances were way too complex for a generalization.

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True. It is based on several first hand accounts by people who were there. However , most of those people were 1) units going in first ( 101st , 82nd , 29th , 4th ) and 2 ) units that had been in other theaters or had been in England training for some time . I am sure that units with virtually new gear was not re-issued gear , but then again , I could see them pulling new rifles from one group and switching them with another new group , just to make extra work to keep the men busy and thier minds on other things .
Chris

I'm not trying to be contrary, but I've posted pics before about this. I'm somewhat of a student of the 2nd ID in WWII because that was my Grandpa's division. I belong to a group on yahoo where there are a few remaining members of that era. We have one picture that clearly shows a couple of 03's on the back's of guys at the top of the beach in Normandy. Those guys were staged in Ireland before the invasion. So, either they were offered new gear, as you've said, and rejected them. Or it was not the case. I can find the picture if you want and post it. I have seen other guys in the two photos I have of this setting with carbines. But I wouldn't be convinced that they all got new gear right before going. You'd think the guys with the O3's would opt for a Garand. Unless they were grenade launchers. But even the Garands had those too, right? Anyways. It's not definitive and I'm not arguing. I'm just throwing it out there.

The other explanation is there is this rumor going around that the Colonel of that Division kept them all in 03's because he preferred them. And then he got relieved early in the Normandy campaign. And then they all got Garands. I don't know though.

Here is is. Those first 3 guys have 03's.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

Many units that were scattered across England were moved nearer the kick-off point for them , some as much as a week or two before D-day. Once there , they were restricted to those grounds . No leave , no nothing. They needed something to keep them sane and to help boost moral . These are the one's I recall getting the brand new rifles . Busy unpacking , degreasing , cleaning , sighting in , etc. , I'm sure it was as much busy work as replacing worn gear . I'm sure that if the commander didn't want to do this , they wouldn't .

Did the 2nd ID have to spend week(s) pinned up before the landing or did they move pretty quickly ?
The '03s here look to have front sights , so they're prob'ly not A4s . I just read the rifle grenade manual , FM 23-30 from 14 Feb 1944 . It explains that the M7 (m1 Garand ) launcher and the M15 sight was just starting to be issued around this time. Canfield's book explains that while some M7s had been made as early as mid '43 , production was very slow and did not really take off till spring of '44 . Also the sights of the M1 and 03A3 were not suited for grenade launching like the 1903's ladder sight and so the M15 sight was needed. These also were not in production till Feb '44 . So , yes , I think most units still used the '03 on D-day and a while later . It is wierd that even with the new M15 sights , the grenade charts ( even later ones ) were locked into the 30* / 45* / 60* angles that were marked by bands on the rifle sling in the early days.
Chris

I'd have to go into the book and see. I would imagine they were staged. But I don't know for sure. I can look at the Division book. It goes through a pretty good timeline on where they were and when, and for how long. Not exact, but to a degree. I DO remember reading a book that said some of the 2nd ID guys were used in the invasion because some of the units were understrength. I'm not sure if that is correct or not. If it is, I would imagine they were up with the 29th and 4th, like you suggested. But none of that is definitive.

Do you think 3 Grenade launcher guys would be right together like that? Seems odd that in the two pictures I have of those guys scaling the hills, I don't see any Garands.

Not unheard of , grenaders could be spread among all platoons or grouped with the heavy weapons , the 1919s , 60mms , and bazookas . If the entire unit was equiped with 03s though , well , they could be just riflemen . I don't see any Grenade bags among them , though , nor any other signs of heavy weapons .
Chris

I went today to the range to test the Inland M1 Carbine

These are groups at 100 meters with BPD 1957 ammo.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img5890k-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img5891c-1.jpg

This is a shot of 19 over 20 at 200 meters with 10 BPD 1957 ammos and 10 S&B actual production ammos.
At 200 meters distance the target is large as the front sight of the carbine.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mg5892nw-1.jpg

Not bad at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like fun and your carbine seems squared away!!!! Along with your shooting.

Thank you ABPOS. :beerchug:

An old range officer said that M1 Carbines are friendly nicknamed here as "watering cans" since they spread rounds. :)

Well yeah, if I compare it to my M1A or accurized AR at 200 meters those would not be so good. But that's not what the carbine is. And even out to 200, I would not want to be on the receiving end. Well, any range for that matter.

This is a group of 15 rounds Fiocchi FMJ 55 Grs commercial ammos at 200 mt. with my Colt Sporter Traget pre-ban. The bullet weight is too light for a barrel twist 1:7
www.armietiro.it Leggi argomento - Colt Sporter Target Model pre-ban

In the picture below, in the same thread, you can see the group of the Italian champion with his accurized AR-15 at 300 meters.

Was that with irons? If so, I'm really impressed.

FWIW, I don't consider 1/7 too fast for 55's. My Colt A2 shoots 20" 1/7 Black Hills 52 bthp's very very well. My "recce" carbine shoots q3131A 1.5-2 MOA very consistently. I think when you start getting into the 40's 1/7 might be getting too fast of a twist. That's my experience.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...E2523EWS-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...E2523EWS-1.jpg

Out of my recce 55 grainers:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...E2523EWS-1.jpg

I do so much better with a scope and a match barrel. hehehhehehe

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg
a picture for staying on topic of carbines. :D

Yes, he is Italian champion with irons at 300 meters with a GAC-15 which is a particular accurized model of AR-15 made in Italy.
The target is for 300 meters, so its larger and the (10) is 10 cm. diameter wide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABPOS

I'm not trying to be contrary, but I've posted pics before about this. I'm somewhat of a student of the 2nd ID in WWII because that was my Grandpa's division. I belong to a group on yahoo where there are a few remaining members of that era. We have one picture that clearly shows a couple of 03's on the back's of guys at the top of the beach in Normandy. Those guys were staged in Ireland before the invasion. So, either they were offered new gear, as you've said, and rejected them. Or it was not the case. I can find the picture if you want and post it. I have seen other guys in the two photos I have of this setting with carbines. But I wouldn't be convinced that they all got new gear right before going. You'd think the guys with the O3's would opt for a Garand. Unless they were grenade launchers. But even the Garands had those too, right? Anyways. It's not definitive and I'm not arguing. I'm just throwing it out there.

The other explanation is there is this rumor going around that the Colonel of that Division kept them all in 03's because he preferred them. And then he got relieved early in the Normandy campaign. And then they all got Garands. I don't know though.

Here is is. Those first 3 guys have 03's.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

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I have seen photos of engineers and other rear area troops a week after D-Day with 03's on there backs while working. Even one of a line men stringing phone wire with an 03 and another one below him on the ground with one.

It was probably one of those "you get what you get" kind of situations.

Yeah, it's evident to me that not everybody got new equipment. For whatever reason.

Good morning all.

I'm back with a further question about my Inland Jun '44 bolt.
I bought the proper tool and I disassembled the bolt.
Extractor is marked "W.I." and firing pin is marked "I-I".

Are these parts both Inland made and proper ones for my M1 Carbine ?

Thank you in advance.

Yes, they are for an Inland.

BTW, welcome back! :thup:

Thank you, Bill Hollinger.