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Attachment 38222
Going by the illustration on page 198 of the GoD book (Guns of Dagenham), I think it's a C1 butt assembly.
It's the first and only part of a C1 I have been able to find here (Texas). Naturally, I would like to find a complete C1, but I am still thrilled to find this.
Are C1's pretty available in Canada?
There are/were @100-200 C1 SMGs in citizens hands in Canada. They don't trade very often.
The CF retained @400 for museum and "experimental" useage.
The surviving balance of the original 30,000+ were destroyed @10 years ago.
When they were put into War Stores @1994, many tons of spares were redirected into Sarco and Numrich, so parts should be quite available in the US.
Sterling told me that they weren't happy with Canada regarding the manufacture of the butts there. The condition of the manufacturing agreement was that any parts not specific or special to the Canadian SMG, such as barrels and butts plus loads of other parts (identified in the book by the 1005-99- start to the part number) would be purchased from Sterling. Butts were a good and lucrative spare part seller for Sterling so when spare parts were required, Canada went and made their own frame .......... But as Canada weren't permitted to sell surplus or excess capacity abroad and generally kept to their agreements, Sterling said no more...........
After the UK Governments conduct with Sterling, Canada were virtually paragons of virtue. While in Australia, Sterling simply allowed Australia to copy the superb magazine for free...................
As for the original question, from what I remember, yes it's a Submachinegun C1 butt. Not really hard to find. But as pointed out, not very many here in Canada. When it came my turn to private purchase, it was a L2A3 I ended up with(I think). It was, of course, handsomely cannibalized with C1 parts...
I have, in the US, two or three magazines, a breech block and cocking handle and a pistol grip. Willing to sell at market price ( whatever that is) .:clap: Regards.
I think that the C1 pistol grips were the bog standard L2A3/Mk4 onwards grip made by Helix Plastics. This was another good/lucrative seller for the Sterling company. Even Fazakerley used the Helix grips. The grips were a hard brittle plastic and later, Helix said that they could make the grips from a better more modern and forgiving plastic that could be repaired using modern adhesives. But Sterling weren't having any of it!
Attachment 38394Attachment 38393
I have two kinds of pistol grips. I think the one on the left is Helix. I was told the one on the right is C1. :confused: It's made from a different plastic and has a slightly different shape.
I also have a FAMAE PAF grip somewhere. It's shaped quite differently.
RCEMERalf, I am interested in your C1 parts. I sent you a PM.
I tend to agree that the right one is CDN. We didn't have the markings at the top. The matt finish seems right too.
Ditto on the right hand (less marked) plastic pistol grip. I clearly remember the words LO CK and FR EE from my youth in our Reserves. I don't recall any other marks. The fact the words were in English seems unsuspicious to anyone except a Canadian. Canada has had policies of official bilingualism for decades, although these rules post date the arrival of the SMG C1 9mm, there are French language manuals etc for almost everything in use in the Army. Afterall, one quarter of the troops were and are still officially French-speaking.
Back to the original question, you need the fancy butt cap to get the full effect of the folder. The hook on the heel of the bottom tube engages in the front handguard of the SMG when folded.
Attachment 58692
Does anyone know where I can download or find a copy of the C1 manual?
Thanks, Steve.
I am trying to gather more information and pictures of the C1. Aside from the chapter in Captain Laidler's book "The Guns of Dagenham", there's not much info available on the C1.
I found a few pictures, but none of them show the sights or the barrel support in any detail.
Internally, the barrel support will be pretty well identical to the L2A3 because it does an identical job supporting an identical barrel - internally. I don't thinki that the C1 front barrel support was rolled in place at the front either but will have (?) been pinned.
I thought it was silver soldered...? Can't recall for certain. But pinning doesn't sound quite right...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I have excellent reprints available. I also have the British training pams, IPL and EMER as well as the user handbook. Contact direct at bdlltd@bellsouth.net.
The reason they were(?) pinned as well BAR was because when used in the classroom and training and dry fired, the breech block will hit the face of the barrel with a hefty, heavy steel impact onto the rear face of the barrel and act like a constant impact hammer that will drive through the barrel onto the barrel support out UNLESS it is secured with a secondary means. Ours were pinned AND rolled at the front and they still occasionally work loose. But so loing as they didn't come out (which you'd occasionallt get.....) you could simply braze them back with a torch. And being at the very end of the casing and through 360 degrees, didn't distort the casing in doing so.
Seen. Yes, we had a bad habit of doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Attachment 58819
Yes, internally very similar to the L2A3. Externally, though, it looks quite different.
And my question for Peter(or any that know for sure) would be where is it pinned?
Attachment 58845
Several of the pictures I have found have what look like pins in the same places. Probably for alignment during assembly would be my guess.
I see, I just don't remember them. It makes sense though.
I would like to get a good look at one. Do you know if there's one in a museum?
There will be but which museum? There was one in the military museum in Gagetown New Brunswick...but I don't remember If the war museum in Ottawa has one...
I just sent emails to those two. Thank you.
Another that comes to mind...the Canadian Scottish Regiment (Princess Mary's) in the Bay St Armory Victoria BC. They have one...I think...could be hard to get hold of right away.
Thanks. I will try them too.
The Sterling guns were drive-pinned in 4 places around the outer circumference. I don't know for sure about the LB manufacture but all alignment, measurements and square were taken from the 6th hole from the front along the top and bottom row of cooling holes. So slotting the, say, foresight block dovetail would see the casing set up into a jig, located on and locked down with a bar through those datum holes. Then mill across.
But, whatever method LB used, I would use this method if I was starting a C1 casing from scratch
Look closely at the locking ring in the picture on page 208. Does that look like a pin in the same location as the later Sterling guns?
Attachment 58851
I think using the first and sixth holes as datum points is very good idea for a scratch build. I hadn’t noticed they were reamed and bigger than the other punched holes until I read about it in your book.
Sterlings don't have a pin in that location so far as I remember. The closest hole to that is just slightly forwards to locate the corresponding pin in the catch, cap, return spring. The Fazakerley pirated Sterling L2 guns didn't use the slightly enlarged locating holes in the casing. How Fazakerley located things exactly is another of lifes mysteries!
Attachment 58852Attachment 58853
The pin through the locking ring seems to have been adapted at some point in the Sterling Mk4 production. It’s very hard to see with the naked eye.
Do you know the purpose of the “D” shaped holes in the casing?
Ah! That’s a gem, Peter. I found a few parts that don’t have the pins and was wondering if they might be Indian. So they are Fazakerley!Quote:
The Fazakerley pirated Sterling L2 guns didn't use the slightly enlarged locating holes in the casing. How Fazakerley located things exactly is another of lifes mysteries!
Attachment 58854
My Christmas present from the wife!
It’s an old import and quite rare here these days. Saw cut and has the original barrel. The ones being imported now are torch cut and don’t have a barrel.
THAT'S what I call a christmas present Vince! I only had a Fazakerley casing handy and that didn't have the holes you mention present.
The D shaped holes are in fact ROUND holes partially covered by the ret spring cap locking ring. They were punched in as markers for the locking lugs of the return spring cap in the locking ring. Have a look....... The holes were designed into the manufacture so that in service, any crud or fouling that got caught in the locking ring would be cleared by the lugs on the return spring cap pushing it through the holes.
Not a lot of people know that!
Added a bit later: Just spoke to a friend and the holes you mention ARE D shaped on his (Sterling) but round on the Faz. But perform the same function. Also, various different locating holes too. Just different manufacturers being able to make best use of their facilities.
I can see what the next project is going to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Yes. It’s going to be a project for sure. Though I have a few others I need to finish before I start on it.Quote:
I can see what the next project is going to be.
I am going to try e-filing for the tax stamp this time. Supposedly it’s only taking five months.
Another gem, Peter! I was wondering if the holes were part of the manufacturing process, or air vents, or as you said, to remove dirt from the locking ring. I noticed they are larger on the Mk3 guns. It's interesting to me that they are round on the Fazakerley casings. Any chance you could post or email a picture of one? They are hens teeth here.
Back to the C1. I am guessing the barrel support has a flat milled on the top for the front sight block, and the sight block is held to it with the screw?
Got a reply from the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa. They said they have a C1 SMG on display (Gallery 4 - Cold War Era).
Looks like I will be flying up to Ottawa soon. :D
Another part arrived today. :D Still looking for the rear sights, magazine well and front sight base.
After spending a couple of days in Buffalo, New York, I think I'll wait for things to warm up before going to the War Museum in Ottawa. Brrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! :move eek:
Yup, front sight. You're definitely doing this one piece at a time. May would be a nice gamble on a time to visit. Snow would be history and mosquitoes might not be out in full force...then you can also tour the city.
Didn't know about the mosquitoes. Thanks.
Ontario mosquitoes are the size of your hand. I was raised there and forgot about them until I was posted to Borden during Gulf War 1...then I remembered.
Arizona mosquitoes come in two sizes . The itty-bitty ones that can fit through your screen door and the big ones that can just open it and walk right in .
Chris
Chris, I here you guys had one land at an airport and the fuel truck dumped in 100 gal before they realized it was an insect...
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....2&d=1421418265
Might try an Uzi rear sight if I can't find a C1.
Surely Vince, with the C1 casing parts being fabricated and having seen your fabrication skills, there's no need to faff around with hybrid parts. You could just fabricate as per original. Likewise any machined parts. You might not have an original to measure up from but you can get the gist of it by deduction. And they're all generally the small bits so machining wouldn't(?) be a problem either
I'm also guessing you're doing up your groundwork and are going to be able to handle one when you get to the museum. They have one on display, but I'll bet there's at least several in the storage. Their excess "Stuff" is staggering...
You’re absolutely right, Peter. I was fixing a friend’s Uzi and came across the sight in a parts bin. It was a bad idea. I am itching to build this…
I have a possible line on the sight and maybe a few other bits.
Hadn’t thought about asking if I could handle one. I will check into it. Thanks, Jim.
Didn't hear about that , but one of the early stealth fighters ran short of fuel and landed here....took hours to find the fuel cap....
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...peedce_F-1.jpg
Something to be aware of, the Canadian windage adjustable rear sight base is wider that the UK L2A3 version, so the bolt handle release hole is not centred in the charging handle slot, it sits below centre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Thanks.
Looking at the picture in Peter's book now. It looks like the slot extends back past the opening for the handle. Do you know why? I am sure there must be a reason.
Canadian Military Police Virtual MuseumQuote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
best pictures available of the C1 SMG
Attachment 59664Attachment 59665Attachment 59666Attachment 59667
Rear sight and a hand guard. :D
I wouldn't mind betting that the flip-over backsight leaf and the spring are L2A3 parts. The leaf being threaded to suit by Canada while ours is just a stock size stainless bar
Our rear sight base had a hole through it for that windage adjustment screw too.
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They looked very close with the naked eye. I had to take some pictures to see the C1 is slightly larger.
The sight base is in the white. I will have to drill the holes.
Was that the way they came? I'm not sure if Peter will know either, the guns of course came finished from CAL but this looks like a proper replacement part. I guess in that case they'd need to be drilled and finished...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Our sights were larger so we could find them with our hands in the dark...to set them...:madsmile:
We has replacement finger guards and foresight brackets in the white but it was known that Sterling would always supply rear sight bases for the price of a phone call from any workshop.
Makes sense. I knew more at the time about the replacement parts for the FN C1s than I did about the C1 SMG...I didn't care as much as I didn't use them as much.
Attachment 60623
:dancingbanana: Doing my happy dance again.
Does anyone know what the small hole at the front of the bracket is for?
I am guessing it's for a locating pin. But it wouldn't need to be open at the top for that :confused:
But far easier to drill straight through than stop part way through. AND the locating pin has more meat to locate onto too!
Sob....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield